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on this episode of skeptical I would be

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surprised if there were not an

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extraterrestrial component to the UFO

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phenomenon but but again I would be very

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surprised if the extra-terrestrial

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hypothesis is a easy catch you know

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could be proved to be a casual answer

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for that for the riddle that's Robbie

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Graham after of a new book UFO was

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reframing the debate what debate well

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that's a real sceptical question like

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how does frontier consciousness science

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like the recent near-death experience

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science published by dr. Sam Varney as

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part of his aware study how does that

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factor into the UFO question and they

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didn't they had one case only that they

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could use and even that case couldn't

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can it prove anything so respectfully

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Robert you're misrepresenting that

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research the lead investigator dr. Sam

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Parr Nia who's a worldwide recognized

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expert in resuscitation his conclusion

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is that consciousness survives bodily

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death dr. PIM van Lommel dr. Jeff flunk

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every researcher who's actively involved

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in studying near-death experience has

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come to the same conclusion

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you can't take their work and then just

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put a spin on it based on your

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interpretation of it and does UFO

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research lead to the kind of deep

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spirituality I'd like to talk about

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I don't feel I'm any more or less

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spiritual than I was when I you know

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when I first became attracted to the

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subject when I was a teenager you know I

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inserted myself to be a spiritual person

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but but I I I've shaken my dogmatic

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attachment to you know two UFOs and

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since I'm always keen to look at the

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conspiratorial angle how does the deep

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state factor into this

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and what about disclosure I mean it

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really ultimately comes down to where

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you stand on how trustworthy and decent

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governmental structures if you take them

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to be fundamentally corrupt and when you

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recognize that the official interactions

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with the UFO subject have been

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characterized almost totally exclusively

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for the past 70 years by deception and

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by psychological warfare why do you

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believe anything that these same

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official bodies have to say on the UFO

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subject honor on a hypothetical

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disclosure day well you would believe it

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because you desperately want to believe

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it all that and more coming up on this

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episode of skeptical

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[Music]

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex zakaris and today a

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show on UFOs one of our guests Robbie

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Graham has been making the rounds with

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this very very interesting new book

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that's getting a lot of tension UFO is

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reframing the debate and we're gonna

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hear from him in just a minute

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but in putting this together here one of

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the things that struck me is how

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surprising it is to me that UFOs are

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still a taboo subject

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orly UFOs are not understood as being

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part of this broader information

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anti-establishment screw the mainstream

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media kind of movement that were in and

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just as an example not to pick on James

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Corbett because I think he's fantastic

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he's been on this show and I love the

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work that he does he publishes the

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corbett report and produces so much

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high-quality alternative media that's

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commenting on things that are going on

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today look at what he has to say about

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ufos nothing

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crickets or our ufos a PSYOP I mean I

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don't get it I don't get how anyone

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who's awake in any way like is trying to

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be spiritually awake or consciousness

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awake or conspiracy awake you know 9/11

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awake or anything like that I don't know

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how you're not interested in UFOs I

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don't know how you're not up to your

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neck in data that you're sorting through

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so I say that because even though you'll

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hear a little bit of infighting between

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this out group of people who are

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interested in UFOs I totally support

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where these folks are trying to take the

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discussion and trying to bring people's

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attention so I commend them for that no

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more of an introduction really necessary

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except to alert you to the fact that the

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interview seems to end and then we have

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a little after talk that we all agreed

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we'd include in the conversation so

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stick around for that after the

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interview seems to end

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here's my interview with Robbie Graham

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and Robert Branstetter about their new

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book UFOs reframing the debate today we

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welcome Robbie Graham and Robert

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Branstetter to skeptic Oh to talk about

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UFOs reframing the debate a book which

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is a collection of original essays

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exploring alternative perspectives on

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UFOs welcome to both of you thank you

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for joining me on skeptic oh thank you

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Alex thanks for having me so Robbie I

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love the book right up my alley tell

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folks about it real briefly reframing

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the debate UFOs what's it about

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in a nutshell well as you touched on

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there Alex it is it is a collection of

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original essays 14 essays exploring

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alternative perspectives on UFOs and how

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we might more usefully study the

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phenomenon in the 21st century and it

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brings together some of who I feel are

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the more progressive and iconoclastic

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thinkers in the field today for a

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critical deconstruction of the you know

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the popular ideas that permeate you

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followed you today so it you know it's

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critical but always constructive and I

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think what's valuable about the book is

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that it represents a range of differing

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and even conflicting alternative

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viewpoints on UFOs and so so a lot of

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the contributors clash from si tu si in

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their in their viewpoints so the reader

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can never really settle on a comfortable

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conclusion and that's the idea it's to

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challenge the reader and to encourage

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the idea that conclusions are not always

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necessary when it comes to this

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phenomenon well I think it's a great

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book it's a great contribution to this

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field I really encourage anyone who's

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listening to pick it up because it has

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this kind of a kind of classic take on

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UFOs that just fits right into so many

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of the topics we're interested here in

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terms of consciousness and deep

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spirituality and a lot of those things

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let's make sure in real basic terms

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we're talking about reframing the debate

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what do we understand what do you

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understand the debate to be

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in broad strokes that needs to be

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reframed um well you know the problem

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with popular ufology is that there is no

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real debate in my opinion in fact you

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won Amazon review for her book a very

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angry reviewer a hard-line

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extra-terrestrial hypothesis disclosure

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advocate was so offended at the basic

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premise of that book that he wrote yeah

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we can't frame it we can't reframe a

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debate that doesn't exist so in his

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opinion there wasn't even a debate to

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reframe he was of the opinion that the

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eth is the answer to the phenomenon is a

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matter of fact and you know despite a

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wide range of as I say contrasting and

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conflicting viewpoints presented across

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14 essays he he found literally nothing

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of value in his two hundred pages so he

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decided to give the book one star and

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essentially cautioned against anyone

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else reading it lest it pollute their

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minds he sort of you know saw this is a

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total affront to his deeply cherished

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beliefs and you know so it's these kind

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of another one start reviewer didn't

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even read the book but based his his his

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review on the other one star review and

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and wrote that you know a shame shame on

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the author apparently unaware that there

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are fourteen authors and that it's an

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edited volume you know it's these kinds

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of extreme reactions that were expected

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we expected these kinds of reactions but

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they also some why a book like this is

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actually necessary I think because today

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as ever the the ETH is the most popular

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you falah djegal theory and it has

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become so popular I think because the

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you know the architecture of the field

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over the years and particularly in the

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new millennium has morphed into this

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this EXO politics movement a movement

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born of the internet and based on this

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blanket acceptance that UFOs are et

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vehicles the government knows this and

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there in time

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truth will break free enlightenment will

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you know sweep the world but you know

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you know today's UFO conferences they

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bear this increasing resemblance to to

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the megachurch nowhere cults of

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personality in the UFO field attract

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thousands or you know many hundreds of

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believers or all hopeful that these

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prophets can move them just an inch

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closer to to UFO salvation and

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I think so so basically pop pill you

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followed you today and these are sweep

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you know these are generalized

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statements I'm making of course it is

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more nuanced than that but on the whole

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popular ufology is represented by the

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disclosure movement and the attachment

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to the idea that UFO truth and ultimate

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truth is within reach and it will come

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to us via some form of official

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statement you know so so so that so

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that's a simplistic and reductive

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approach to the UFO phenomenon I think

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and I think if you look at the

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grassroots report spanning seven decades

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and when you really take it down and you

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know take it back down to its roots you

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see that the the phenomenon seems to be

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far more complex and multifaceted than

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just the ETH without dissing it without

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rejecting the ETH it seems to be far

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more complex than that okay just let me

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make sure we haven't totally lost

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everybody when we keep saying ETH you

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did say in within there what you're

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talking about but this idea that people

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often use the term nuts and bolts in

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simple terms what do you mean when you

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say ETH the extra-terrestrial hypothesis

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the ETH is the most popular you for

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logical interpretation of the UFO

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phenomenon and it's also on one level

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the most simplistic of the anomalous

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explanations for the UFO phenomenon it

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contends that UFOs the UFO phenomena at

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its core when you sift out all of the

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other you know explainable cases is

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ultimately down to extraterrestrial

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visitation that we are being visited by

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one or multiple extraterrestrial

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civilizations that they've been

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interacting with this for at least 70

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years probably longer and that the u.s.

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the United States government and and

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probably other governments are aware of

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this fact but now only are they aware of

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it but that they have you know

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meaningful mutual relationships with the

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extraterrestrial intelligences that they

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have reverse-engineered craft and as a

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result of that that they have sprung up

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you know a super civilization hidden in

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secret and the you know basically the

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powers that be have all of the answers

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to the UFO riddle and all we need to do

276
00:12:02,040 --> 00:11:58,480
hold on because you just made the pivot

277
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:02,050
there that is you know a different step

278
00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:05,530
because Robbie from reading various

279
00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:06,910
things that you've written and said I

280
00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:09,040
get the impression that you are not

281
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:11,590
totally against what you just said you

282
00:12:17,130 --> 00:12:13,810
wouldn't you're against that as being

283
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:17,140
the exclusive explanation for everything

284
00:12:23,460 --> 00:12:20,530
that gets lumped into the strangeness

285
00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:23,470
that surrounds UFOs but that you would

286
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:27,070
not reject that as being an explanation

287
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:31,330
for some of what is being experienced so

288
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:33,370
don't we have to be careful and kind of

289
00:12:39,570 --> 00:12:37,600
teasing this out and and then kind of

290
00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:39,580
pigeon holing people and saying you know

291
00:12:43,310 --> 00:12:41,680
these are people who were ETH and they

292
00:12:46,110 --> 00:12:43,320
believe this and they don't believe this

293
00:12:49,980 --> 00:12:46,120
correct I absolutely agree we've just

294
00:12:51,870 --> 00:12:49,990
said Alex and I've said in in you know

295
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:51,880
various statements during the promotion

296
00:12:57,690 --> 00:12:55,090
of this book the I am I would say I

297
00:12:59,190 --> 00:12:57,700
think far more open to the

298
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:59,200
extra-terrestrial hypothesis and

299
00:13:03,870 --> 00:13:00,880
probably most of the contributors to

300
00:13:08,010 --> 00:13:03,880
this book are I still think the ETH is a

301
00:13:10,830 --> 00:13:08,020
is a valid hypothesis to an extent I I

302
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:10,840
would be surprised I would be surprised

303
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:13,330
if there were not an extraterrestrial

304
00:13:18,210 --> 00:13:15,910
component to the UFO phenomenon but I

305
00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:18,220
but again I would be very surprised if

306
00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:21,400
the extra-terrestrial hypothesis is a is

307
00:13:25,410 --> 00:13:23,590
a catch you know could be proved to be a

308
00:13:27,090 --> 00:13:25,420
casual answer for that for the riddle I

309
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:27,100
think what we're dealing with this is

310
00:13:30,570 --> 00:13:28,570
far more profound and complex a form

311
00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:30,580
were tied into human consciousness it's

312
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:32,470
far more participatory I think than the

313
00:13:36,810 --> 00:13:34,930
standard ETS would have us believe hold

314
00:13:38,460 --> 00:13:36,820
on cuz I'm a first well I want to pull

315
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:38,470
you into this in a minute Robert but as

316
00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:40,330
a way of pulling you into that you know

317
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:43,390
where I'm coming from I kind of see the

318
00:13:48,390 --> 00:13:45,760
thing differently I started out being

319
00:13:50,190 --> 00:13:48,400
interested in the consciousness question

320
00:13:52,110 --> 00:13:50,200
I started out just being interested in

321
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:52,120
what I thought were the the biggest most

322
00:13:56,070 --> 00:13:54,010
important questions that science or

323
00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:56,080
people could ask you know who are we why

324
00:14:00,240 --> 00:13:58,210
are we here and that led me down the

325
00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:00,250
path to saying well what is that voice

326
00:14:03,630 --> 00:14:01,690
inside my head and

327
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:03,640
what is science think it is and what do

328
00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:06,250
other traditions and wisdom and

329
00:14:11,190 --> 00:14:08,470
spiritual people think that voice inside

330
00:14:15,630 --> 00:14:11,200
my head is and that led me down a whole

331
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:15,640
path of really falsifying materialism

332
00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:18,490
which i think is fundamentally

333
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:20,740
intertwined in this discussion that

334
00:14:24,660 --> 00:14:22,570
you're having and I think we need to

335
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:24,670
kind of tease it out or at least i.t

336
00:14:30,930 --> 00:14:26,890
that up that what happens when we tease

337
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:30,940
that out because materialism this idea

338
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:33,490
that you are a biological robot and a

339
00:14:38,940 --> 00:14:36,130
meaningless universe is the fundamental

340
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:38,950
foundation of science as we know it of

341
00:14:45,690 --> 00:14:41,410
that it's the dominant paradigm and it's

342
00:14:47,580 --> 00:14:45,700
its stumbling block really behind all

343
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:47,590
that is the issue you just talked about

344
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:49,570
its consciousness and what is

345
00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:52,240
consciousness and how can science if

346
00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:53,680
it's science doesn't understand

347
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:55,630
consciousness how can science really say

348
00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:57,010
it understands anything

349
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:01,120
so are we mixing together two things

350
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:03,730
that until we pull them apart you know

351
00:15:09,260 --> 00:15:06,610
are you confronting people with the ET

352
00:15:12,180 --> 00:15:09,270
hypothesis who that is the outward

353
00:15:14,430 --> 00:15:12,190
manifestation of what their issue is but

354
00:15:16,770 --> 00:15:14,440
the real issue is don't take away my

355
00:15:19,290 --> 00:15:16,780
materialism don't take away this idea

356
00:15:21,890 --> 00:15:19,300
that the world is out there and we can

357
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:21,900
measure it and understand it when the

358
00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:24,910
frontier science is telling you well you

359
00:15:30,990 --> 00:15:27,070
know it's not exactly out there and we

360
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:31,000
sure as [\h__\h] can't measure it so let me

361
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:33,010
get your opinion on that Robbie and then

362
00:15:38,250 --> 00:15:35,050
also Robert would you jump in after

363
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:38,260
Robbie gets done yeah I think you know

364
00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:40,720
the appeal the appeal so again I must

365
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:43,300
reiterate that I do not reject the ETH I

366
00:15:48,780 --> 00:15:45,970
am actually very sympathetic to you know

367
00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:48,790
to that hypothesis but I think the

368
00:15:51,690 --> 00:15:50,350
problem with a lot of people in the

369
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:51,700
community that at least you know in my

370
00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:53,290
experience is that people want it to be

371
00:15:57,210 --> 00:15:54,910
either/or you know it's either it's

372
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:57,220
either this or it's that it can't be it

373
00:16:02,370 --> 00:16:00,160
can't be many things because of as many

374
00:16:06,210 --> 00:16:02,380
things then it's you know then a

375
00:16:08,670 --> 00:16:06,220
conclusive answer solution to the riddle

376
00:16:10,170 --> 00:16:08,680
is probably very far off whereas if it's

377
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:10,180
one thing then it's easier to grasp and

378
00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:12,490
more provable and the ETH is appealing

379
00:16:15,490 --> 00:16:14,440
in that sense because ultimately it has

380
00:16:17,710 --> 00:16:15,500
some kind of

381
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:17,720
a graspable tangible technological

382
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:20,930
answer and proof can literally be in our

383
00:16:26,770 --> 00:16:22,370
hands at some point in some physical

384
00:16:28,510 --> 00:16:26,780
form and but again that reduces the the

385
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:28,520
phenomenon to two into inter very

386
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:32,480
simplistic terms and as you've noted you

387
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:34,790
know that the consciousness aspect seems

388
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:37,670
to underpin almost every single close

389
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:39,650
encounter case ever reported really over

390
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:42,800
over the last 70 years or more and there

391
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:44,210
are really some high extreme high

392
00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:46,190
strangeness cases that characterized

393
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:47,990
that the UFO phenomenon I would say and

394
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:49,970
a lot of these don't really get a lot of

395
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:53,750
attention from hardcore nuts-and-bolts

396
00:17:01,150 --> 00:16:57,440
people because again they seem to fly in

397
00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:01,160
the face of a simplistic ETH answer

398
00:17:07,809 --> 00:17:03,590
where you know some of these some of

399
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:07,819
these experiences seem to be absolutely

400
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:11,810
so landish and and an almost cartoonish

401
00:17:15,670 --> 00:17:14,329
and yes you know being reported by

402
00:17:18,100 --> 00:17:15,680
people who are absolutely convinced of

403
00:17:20,679 --> 00:17:18,110
what they've experienced but what

404
00:17:23,949 --> 00:17:20,689
they've experienced seems to just have

405
00:17:25,809 --> 00:17:23,959
no place within the the ETH paradigm and

406
00:17:26,980 --> 00:17:25,819
we you know we cite numerous examples of

407
00:17:30,670 --> 00:17:26,990
these kinds of encounters throughout the

408
00:17:32,590 --> 00:17:30,680
book in fact we have whole we have a

409
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:32,600
whole essay in the book devoted to this

410
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:34,690
idea to this this question of

411
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:37,010
materialism versus anti materialism and

412
00:17:45,940 --> 00:17:40,910
where can we place the phenomenon within

413
00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:45,950
these you know within these you know

414
00:17:52,750 --> 00:17:50,030
within that spectrum and just by Joshua

415
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:52,760
coaching and he has a good quote in his

416
00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:55,510
essay where he says that you know moving

417
00:18:00,250 --> 00:17:58,400
well he says from from materialism ashes

418
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:00,260
a new model of reality will arise where

419
00:18:04,060 --> 00:18:02,330
in the scientific establishment accepts

420
00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:04,070
the completely intangible holy

421
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:05,870
interiorized phenomenon of human

422
00:18:09,610 --> 00:18:07,730
consciousness can manifest measurable

423
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:09,620
effects in our physical world and this

424
00:18:13,690 --> 00:18:11,930
is something again that that Robert laws

425
00:18:15,340 --> 00:18:13,700
to some extent in his essay and Greg

426
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:15,350
Bishop explores in his essay you know

427
00:18:19,870 --> 00:18:16,970
what what do we bring to these

428
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:19,880
experiences are they simple we simply a

429
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:22,250
spectator having no control over what

430
00:18:25,930 --> 00:18:24,290
he's experienced and witnessed or do we

431
00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:25,940
place them which is you know do we have

432
00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:29,360
some participate some participatory role

433
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:33,260
and you know josh also says you know

434
00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:34,610
moving beyond materialism is about

435
00:18:38,260 --> 00:18:36,080
honestly confronting the fact that we

436
00:18:40,270 --> 00:18:38,270
know nothing for certain about UFOs and

437
00:18:42,010 --> 00:18:40,280
yet choosing to be inspired rather than

438
00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:42,020
frustrated by this realization you know

439
00:18:48,490 --> 00:18:43,750
leading to a type of non-dogmatic

440
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:48,500
Gnosticism so so you know these so the

441
00:18:52,690 --> 00:18:49,910
essays clashed back and forth between

442
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:52,700
materialist approaches people advocating

443
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:54,530
traditional scientific nuts-and-bolts

444
00:18:59,080 --> 00:18:57,290
approaches to the phenomenon and in this

445
00:19:00,820 --> 00:18:59,090
view today you know screw materialism we

446
00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:00,830
need to get to get to get to grips with

447
00:19:05,290 --> 00:19:03,470
the really mystical aspects of this

448
00:19:08,410 --> 00:19:05,300
really and and things that are tied in

449
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:08,420
much more directly to to who we are as a

450
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:11,810
species we need to stop externalizing

451
00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:13,250
the phenomenon as being something out

452
00:19:17,380 --> 00:19:15,550
there that is happening to us and

453
00:19:19,450 --> 00:19:17,390
potentially recognize it as being

454
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:19,460
something that it's that is closer to

455
00:19:24,490 --> 00:19:21,200
home in some respect or it could be both

456
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:24,500
you know so the short answer is I don't

457
00:19:28,060 --> 00:19:27,050
really you'll hear me say you'll hear me

458
00:19:30,790 --> 00:19:28,070
answer a lot of questions with I don't

459
00:19:32,590 --> 00:19:30,800
know and I think a lot of UFO

460
00:19:34,180 --> 00:19:32,600
researchers and authors and people in

461
00:19:36,220 --> 00:19:34,190
this field should should feel more

462
00:19:37,420 --> 00:19:36,230
comfortable in saying I do not know when

463
00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:37,430
people ask them questions because

464
00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:40,880
ultimately none of something flew Robert

465
00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:41,720
where do you stand

466
00:19:48,130 --> 00:19:45,800
screw aterial ism or no you know I like

467
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:48,140
Robby I walk a bunch of different lines

468
00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:50,240
when it comes to this as somebody who

469
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:52,190
would defines himself as an experiencer

470
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:53,840
and as somebody who's witnessed craft

471
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:55,730
although I've arrived at a point in my

472
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:57,440
life now where I I couldn't actually

473
00:20:01,930 --> 00:19:59,600
tell you for certain that the things

474
00:20:04,060 --> 00:20:01,940
that I saw were nuts and bolts flying

475
00:20:05,860 --> 00:20:04,070
saucers even though that's exactly what

476
00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:05,870
they look like to me and the other

477
00:20:09,790 --> 00:20:08,360
people that witnessed it but yeah you

478
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:09,800
know the direction that I've gone in

479
00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:12,080
over the years and I think here's a good

480
00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:14,990
parallels a parallel to this idea of the

481
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:17,800
materialist you know versus idealist

482
00:20:23,950 --> 00:20:20,000
consideration is to look at Jerome

483
00:20:26,980 --> 00:20:23,960
Clark's model for how we understand UFO

484
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:26,990
cases and his notion is is there's two

485
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:29,450
two camps there's experienced anomalies

486
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:31,610
and there's event anomalies the event

487
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:32,930
anomalies are these hardcore

488
00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:35,330
materialists factual based events where

489
00:20:40,270 --> 00:20:37,460
you've got radar traces confirmed

490
00:20:42,490 --> 00:20:40,280
witnesses real critical evidence that we

491
00:20:43,090 --> 00:20:42,500
can actually talk about and see and

492
00:20:45,310 --> 00:20:43,100
witness and

493
00:20:47,289 --> 00:20:45,320
it's not discontinuous it happens all in

494
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:47,299
a consistent stretch and and those are

495
00:20:51,970 --> 00:20:49,760
there's only a handful of those I think

496
00:20:54,970 --> 00:20:51,980
in existence really whereas the what

497
00:20:57,130 --> 00:20:54,980
dominates the history of ufology in case

498
00:20:58,659 --> 00:20:57,140
history is experienced anomalies and

499
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:58,669
experienced anomalies are things that

500
00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:00,799
are witnesses that happen to witnesses

501
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:03,590
and Clark says this is alive only in the

502
00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:06,890
memory and in witness testimony that

503
00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:08,630
that's the only place that exists and in

504
00:21:13,690 --> 00:21:10,460
this way the majority of what we talk

505
00:21:15,370 --> 00:21:13,700
about in the history of UFOs is really

506
00:21:18,430 --> 00:21:15,380
about a personal experience and it's a

507
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:18,440
story and it's at its core piece it's a

508
00:21:23,260 --> 00:21:20,330
story that is told from one person to

509
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:23,270
others if you want to extrapolate a

510
00:21:27,310 --> 00:21:25,280
material reality or projected

511
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:27,320
materialist reality on to these stories

512
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:29,090
I think that's a very dangerous thing to

513
00:21:33,310 --> 00:21:31,520
do I think the better thing to do is to

514
00:21:35,169 --> 00:21:33,320
look at well what's the one materialist

515
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:35,179
component that we've got in these

516
00:21:38,169 --> 00:21:36,320
stories and that's the witness

517
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:38,179
themselves and one of the things that

518
00:21:42,820 --> 00:21:40,850
gets advocated most inside of this book

519
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:42,830
is to pay more attention to that

520
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:45,230
physical living breathing witness who's

521
00:21:49,450 --> 00:21:47,600
had the experience and let's look at

522
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:49,460
what's happened to them because I think

523
00:21:55,210 --> 00:21:51,770
we can get more purchase on perhaps this

524
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:55,220
very slippery and oblique phenomenon by

525
00:21:59,919 --> 00:21:57,890
looking at impact on witnesses then we

526
00:22:02,169 --> 00:21:59,929
can in trying to make assumptions about

527
00:22:04,630 --> 00:22:02,179
the stories that they tell and then

528
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:04,640
trying to find facts to fit those those

529
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:06,530
spaces and try to build a materialist

530
00:22:12,340 --> 00:22:10,010
paradigm out of the UFO event when truly

531
00:22:13,659 --> 00:22:12,350
the I think that's a big challenge and

532
00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:13,669
there's a lot of assumptions that get

533
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:15,830
made when we start going down that road

534
00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:19,010
I don't know I'm kind of back and forth

535
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:21,260
with this I mean I think when we start

536
00:22:28,779 --> 00:22:25,520
mixing in materialism and then we kind

537
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:28,789
of get in this in-between zone why are

538
00:22:34,930 --> 00:22:32,559
the accounts of experiencers any less

539
00:22:37,180 --> 00:22:34,940
materialistic I mean why are they by

540
00:22:39,399 --> 00:22:37,190
definition any less materialistic than

541
00:22:42,279 --> 00:22:39,409
the accounts of someone who sights a

542
00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:42,289
craft and season on radar and sees trace

543
00:22:46,990 --> 00:22:44,840
a you know physical trace elements left

544
00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:47,000
behind and and why do we want to get

545
00:22:50,919 --> 00:22:48,950
into a numbers game of saying gee there

546
00:22:53,770 --> 00:22:50,929
aren't that many there's only a handful

547
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:53,780
I mean let's destroy or a kind of class

548
00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:55,760
let's just throw one paradigm as at a

549
00:22:59,660 --> 00:22:56,340
time

550
00:23:02,390 --> 00:22:59,670
I mean if the ETH hypothesis destroys

551
00:23:05,030 --> 00:23:02,400
dis mammals just completely uh Niall

552
00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:05,040
AIT's the existing scientific paradigm

553
00:23:11,420 --> 00:23:07,620
that we're in which it does isn't that

554
00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:11,430
enough to just say okay let's advance as

555
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:14,910
far as we can the ETH hypothesis it

556
00:23:21,170 --> 00:23:18,050
acknowledged that it may not be in a

557
00:23:24,590 --> 00:23:21,180
valid for the breadth of all the

558
00:23:28,790 --> 00:23:24,600
experiences but again crush one paradigm

559
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:28,800
at a time a the the problem with the a

560
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:32,250
th and as you know I you know I I'm

561
00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:33,930
supportive of it to an extent but I you

562
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:35,640
know the problem with it is is that it

563
00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:38,310
is dominated you falada chol discussion

564
00:23:43,580 --> 00:23:39,990
since the since the birth of the modern

565
00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:43,590
phenomena almost and we are no closer

566
00:23:48,980 --> 00:23:47,550
today to proving it you know so it's all

567
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:48,990
very well talking about advancing it and

568
00:23:54,290 --> 00:23:51,840
I'd be all for that but but I see no way

569
00:23:55,550 --> 00:23:54,300
of doing that with the you know with the

570
00:23:56,540 --> 00:23:55,560
current questions that are being asked

571
00:23:58,100 --> 00:23:56,550
of the phenomenon and the current

572
00:24:02,120 --> 00:23:58,110
approaches they're being taken towards

573
00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:02,130
studying it and you know we are we and

574
00:24:06,620 --> 00:24:03,720
also you know we're we're only seventy

575
00:24:08,690 --> 00:24:06,630
years approximately into the study of

576
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:08,700
the modern phenomenon and you know so

577
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:10,080
for example that you know disclosure

578
00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:11,490
advocates they're well 70 years is

579
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:13,500
seventy years too many we should have we

580
00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:15,210
you know we should have disclosure by

581
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:16,620
now and we should be living in a new

582
00:24:19,790 --> 00:24:17,210
world

583
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,800
seventy years isn't absolutely nothing

584
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:21,360
it barely registers on a cosmic

585
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:24,000
timescale and we're in a real big hurry

586
00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:26,130
to have the ultimate answer to something

587
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:29,430
that is you know so profoundly bizarre

588
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:31,890
well of course we are why why would we

589
00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:33,930
not why would we not be in a hurry cost

590
00:24:38,090 --> 00:24:36,300
well but we need to recognize that that

591
00:24:39,260 --> 00:24:38,100
sometimes it's sometimes you need to

592
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:39,270
sort of slow down and start asking

593
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:40,860
different questions and if you're no

594
00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:43,170
closer to proving something after

595
00:24:46,550 --> 00:24:44,790
seventy after seventy years which again

596
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:46,560
is no time at all but people perceive it

597
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:49,410
to be a great amount of time then then

598
00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:51,210
perhaps you should start to you know go

599
00:24:57,700 --> 00:24:53,820
down some different paths and I think it

600
00:25:01,430 --> 00:24:57,710
would be madness to not recognize the

601
00:25:04,460 --> 00:25:01,440
you know the the potential of the human

602
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:04,470
experience err in shaping to a

603
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:06,150
considerable degree the experiences that

604
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:09,210
are reported we we do ourselves and

605
00:25:13,820 --> 00:25:10,110
injustice as

606
00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:13,830
as a you know as a species as a as a

607
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:16,860
creature as a machine you know we are

608
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:18,450
tremendously complex we barely

609
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:20,570
understand the processes of our

610
00:25:27,470 --> 00:25:23,760
cognition and consciousness and and yet

611
00:25:29,060 --> 00:25:27,480
we we sort of have no desire to study

612
00:25:30,980 --> 00:25:29,070
that part of it the part of it it's

613
00:25:33,890 --> 00:25:30,990
closest to us we seem to want to

614
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:33,900
externalize it as again as I've said as

615
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:35,250
something that it's happening to us from

616
00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:37,410
afar and our role is that of spectator

617
00:25:41,630 --> 00:25:39,960
and all we need to do is to sort of put

618
00:25:44,330 --> 00:25:41,640
our hands out to what the powers that be

619
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:44,340
and say please tell us and so it's sort

620
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:45,840
of disempowers the individual

621
00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:48,210
disempowers discourages grassroots

622
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:50,820
research see I agree with you all along

623
00:25:54,289 --> 00:25:52,110
and then at the end I just want to go

624
00:25:57,740 --> 00:25:54,299
wait a minute I mean this is your book

625
00:25:59,120 --> 00:25:57,750
is a tremendous contribution I said this

626
00:26:01,130 --> 00:25:59,130
in the email and I'll repeat it on air

627
00:26:03,289 --> 00:26:01,140
because it's just true it's not just a

628
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:03,299
tremendous contribution to the field of

629
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:05,850
the study of UFOs and strange phenomena

630
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:08,730
it's a contribution to our culture these

631
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:10,410
are the kind of questions that are

632
00:26:16,220 --> 00:26:13,890
fundamental to who we think we are well

633
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:16,230
whose shaping our culture how it's being

634
00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:19,110
shaped our scientific community its

635
00:26:23,270 --> 00:26:21,750
fundamental so I say that you know

636
00:26:25,310 --> 00:26:23,280
there's something coming at the end of

637
00:26:26,450 --> 00:26:25,320
it I mean some of this the discussion

638
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:26,460
we're going to have is going to be

639
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:28,650
inside baseball everyone needs to go out

640
00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:30,960
and get this book UFOs reframing the

641
00:26:35,299 --> 00:26:32,870
debate so you can join the conversation

642
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:35,309
but now once we're in this conversation

643
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:37,410
I got a poke at you a little bit in the

644
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:42,210
spirit of skeptic oh and us perpetuating

645
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:44,370
doubt which I feel is the ethos here

646
00:26:48,530 --> 00:26:46,559
and some of this is a little bit of

647
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:48,540
infighting within an out group and

648
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:50,250
that's we also have to I could think

649
00:26:54,350 --> 00:26:52,799
identify that so I'm interested in UFOs

650
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:54,360
you're interested in you up those were

651
00:26:58,039 --> 00:26:56,010
an out group but what's the first thing

652
00:26:59,419 --> 00:26:58,049
we do well we start picking at each

653
00:27:01,760 --> 00:26:59,429
other and you know that's just the way

654
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:01,770
the thing goes - and we have but I think

655
00:27:05,630 --> 00:27:03,570
it is important to kind of recognize

656
00:27:08,150 --> 00:27:05,640
that and see how much of that is at play

657
00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:08,160
and that so with all that let me get

658
00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:10,500
back to the ETH and I want to give you

659
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:11,750
an example of where I'm coming from

660
00:27:16,789 --> 00:27:14,610
Stanton Friedman who anyone will

661
00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:16,799
acknowledge is a giant in this field no

662
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:19,230
matter how you cut it he was there from

663
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:20,640
the beginning he's made a tremendous

664
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:23,530
contribution in terms of

665
00:27:28,590 --> 00:27:26,410
public awareness and solid information

666
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:28,600
and he's dug up a lot of stuff and I

667
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:31,330
like the guy too but I think that when I

668
00:27:36,990 --> 00:27:34,570
hear people have jumped on the

669
00:27:39,390 --> 00:27:37,000
consciousness man wagon and and then

670
00:27:41,370 --> 00:27:39,400
I've tried to apply it to UFOs and he

671
00:27:44,340 --> 00:27:41,380
gets held up as this like punching bag

672
00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:44,350
about consciousness and I don't see it

673
00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:46,360
I'm telling you I interviewed the guy

674
00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:48,340
and he's all over the consciousness

675
00:27:52,650 --> 00:27:51,070
issue let me play for you this clip from

676
00:27:55,470 --> 00:27:52,660
my interview with Stanton Friedman and

677
00:27:57,870 --> 00:27:55,480
then we'll t already teed it up so I

678
00:27:58,520 --> 00:27:57,880
want you guys to tell me what you think

679
00:28:03,330 --> 00:27:58,530
okay

680
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:03,340
sure we do have to acknowledge as you

681
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:05,170
did in your work with Betty and Barney

682
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:07,930
Hill and other plays yes that we do come

683
00:28:14,610 --> 00:28:11,760
across telepathy mind-control

684
00:28:17,150 --> 00:28:14,620
psychokinesis and all the rest and I'm

685
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:17,160
wondering what that evidence tells us

686
00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:20,050
not only about the others but about

687
00:28:24,750 --> 00:28:22,780
ourselves and our human capabilities

688
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:24,760
that extend beyond what we normally

689
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:28,110
think of as our conscious experience

690
00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:30,610
well it's a very important point because

691
00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:32,860
I'm convinced that any advanced

692
00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:36,040
civilization well know about telepathy

693
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:39,880
and mind control and communication at a

694
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:43,120
distance and it really came home to me

695
00:28:46,620 --> 00:28:44,530
when I was standing at the exact

696
00:28:48,990 --> 00:28:46,630
location where Barney Hill was standing

697
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:49,000
when the saucer was over their car and

698
00:28:54,390 --> 00:28:51,250
he's looking through binoculars at the

699
00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:54,400
crew on board and then for no good

700
00:29:00,510 --> 00:28:57,520
reason they jump back in the car he's

701
00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:00,520
very frightened and they get off the

702
00:29:04,140 --> 00:29:02,470
main road route 3 and they go unto a

703
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:04,150
secondary road and then they go onto a

704
00:29:09,870 --> 00:29:06,880
dirt road which Barney would never have

705
00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:09,880
done and he winds up alongside the only

706
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:11,260
place in the area where he could Lynne

707
00:29:16,170 --> 00:29:13,570
and let's say 80 foot diameter flying

708
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:16,180
saucers a sandy area the trees all over

709
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:17,530
the place but this area was big enough

710
00:29:22,170 --> 00:29:20,050
to get his saucer down him and it was

711
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:22,180
clear proof to me that these guys were

712
00:29:28,410 --> 00:29:26,410
directing his actions and also remember

713
00:29:31,860 --> 00:29:28,420
as part of that story and so many

714
00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:31,870
stories like this but they were directed

715
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:33,830
to forget what happened

716
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:36,799
I want to give you both a chance to

717
00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:38,330
respond to that but I want to make it

718
00:29:41,169 --> 00:29:39,590
clear that when we're talking about

719
00:29:43,539 --> 00:29:41,179
telekinesis and we're talking about

720
00:29:47,730 --> 00:29:43,549
extended consciousness it's just a hop

721
00:29:51,580 --> 00:29:47,740
skip and a jump to demonology fairies

722
00:29:53,289 --> 00:29:51,590
any other realm of extended

723
00:29:54,909 --> 00:29:53,299
consciousness that we want to get into

724
00:29:55,810 --> 00:29:54,919
and I think you'll acknowledge that but

725
00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:55,820
go ahead

726
00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:57,260
you know maybe Robert you want to take

727
00:30:01,299 --> 00:29:58,610
first stab at it first and then we'll

728
00:30:02,649 --> 00:30:01,309
let Robby do it sure absolutely because

729
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:02,659
I would say that you know we're

730
00:30:07,419 --> 00:30:05,600
Stanton's fault is there is he is taking

731
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:07,429
a story and a really intriguing

732
00:30:11,710 --> 00:30:09,710
incredible story and one that is in many

733
00:30:15,370 --> 00:30:11,720
ways the birth of abduction

734
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:15,380
you know discussion and he's using it as

735
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:18,710
facts as evidence of alien agency that

736
00:30:21,879 --> 00:30:20,690
the aliens are acting upon Barney

737
00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:21,889
they're making you think certain things

738
00:30:26,620 --> 00:30:24,049
and at the end of the day that those

739
00:30:28,690 --> 00:30:26,630
reports of telepathy and telekinesis

740
00:30:31,299 --> 00:30:28,700
that are taking place inside of people's

741
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:31,309
minds I don't think we can ascribe them

742
00:30:35,620 --> 00:30:34,159
immediately to an agent that is

743
00:30:37,779 --> 00:30:35,630
conscious that is a nonhuman

744
00:30:39,310 --> 00:30:37,789
intelligence I think that's the big leap

745
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:39,320
and I think that's the dangerous

746
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:41,840
thinking mode that kind of takes us off

747
00:30:46,060 --> 00:30:43,760
into a territory where we can't actually

748
00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:46,070
talk about it in any real and concrete

749
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:48,289
way because then anything is possible at

750
00:30:54,549 --> 00:30:51,289
that point in time maybe better is to

751
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:54,559
explore Barney the experiences that he

752
00:30:59,950 --> 00:30:56,720
had how it affected him how it impacted

753
00:31:01,570 --> 00:30:59,960
him and understand how inside of these

754
00:31:03,399 --> 00:31:01,580
high strange cases and I think high

755
00:31:04,779 --> 00:31:03,409
strange cases tell us something very

756
00:31:06,610 --> 00:31:04,789
significant about the nature of the

757
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:06,620
phenomenon that in the high strange

758
00:31:11,860 --> 00:31:08,690
cases it appears that the human being is

759
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:11,870
a bigger participant in it and we need

760
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:14,090
to look more at the relationship of

761
00:31:18,250 --> 00:31:16,370
issues of perception and cognition and

762
00:31:20,139 --> 00:31:18,260
consciousness and how did these work

763
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:20,149
inside of these extreme events as

764
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:25,130
opposed to making a tamiya a huge leap

765
00:31:29,259 --> 00:31:27,769
in in the wrong direction to say this if

766
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:29,269
I have proof of this now I have proof of

767
00:31:33,370 --> 00:31:31,010
telekinesis I've got proof of telepathy

768
00:31:35,230 --> 00:31:33,380
the aliens are talking to me and I think

769
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:35,240
that's that's the misstep that you

770
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:37,010
follow geez taken for a long time is to

771
00:31:40,330 --> 00:31:38,450
take stories and turn them into evidence

772
00:31:43,149 --> 00:31:40,340
and facts and and then basic ideology

773
00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:43,159
around them as opposed to working with

774
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:44,630
the only concrete piece which is the

775
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:46,370
witness themselves which might lead us

776
00:31:53,230 --> 00:31:47,630
into deeper understandings of

777
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:53,240
- itself Robbie yeah I mean I agree with

778
00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:55,490
Robert but you know

779
00:32:03,340 --> 00:31:58,610
Stanton's statement there although he's

780
00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:03,350
acknowledging the reality of of sight

781
00:32:08,010 --> 00:32:05,900
phenomena and and you know in the role

782
00:32:11,980 --> 00:32:08,020
of consciousness there he's still

783
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:11,990
externalizing it and ascribing it to you

784
00:32:16,990 --> 00:32:14,690
know to an alien other and intelligent

785
00:32:19,780 --> 00:32:17,000
alien other as Roberts says there and

786
00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:19,790
sort of downplaying or not giving credit

787
00:32:25,450 --> 00:32:22,300
to the potential that we have as

788
00:32:26,590 --> 00:32:25,460
creative individuals not through from

789
00:32:29,020 --> 00:32:26,600
not through any not through you know

790
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:29,030
form of conventional fantasy by any

791
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:31,610
means these are real experiences to

792
00:32:38,860 --> 00:32:34,610
people and and also you know I come at a

793
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:38,870
point here in my did my study of all of

794
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:42,110
this where I really just do not fall

795
00:32:48,010 --> 00:32:45,200
down on you know strongly on anyone's

796
00:32:51,460 --> 00:32:48,020
side anymore I really just conclusions

797
00:32:53,890 --> 00:32:51,470
are kind of meaningless to me at this

798
00:32:55,510 --> 00:32:53,900
point now and so I can fully entertain

799
00:32:58,600 --> 00:32:55,520
the idea that what Betty and Barney

800
00:33:02,470 --> 00:32:58,610
experienced was absolutely a an

801
00:33:04,090 --> 00:33:02,480
extraterrestrial in their intervention

802
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:04,100
in in their lives it you know it could

803
00:33:06,130 --> 00:33:05,930
very well have been there's no proof of

804
00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:06,140
that

805
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:10,190
circumstantial evidence it's been

806
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:12,410
interpreted through cultural ideological

807
00:33:19,330 --> 00:33:16,310
frameworks over over many decades but

808
00:33:20,620 --> 00:33:19,340
but but there's no proof of it I know

809
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:20,630
and as justice there's no proof of the

810
00:33:27,610 --> 00:33:23,510
ETH it's it's a valid theory in theory

811
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:27,620
you know but but again so stamps very

812
00:33:32,830 --> 00:33:30,410
he's externalizing that this I you know

813
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:32,840
the the event and it could be an

814
00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:34,850
external event but as Robert says it

815
00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:37,400
could very well be closer to home or it

816
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:38,990
could be a combination as Greg Bishop

817
00:33:43,690 --> 00:33:41,450
explores in his essay in great detail it

818
00:33:47,070 --> 00:33:43,700
could be a combination of the human

819
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:47,080
observer consciousness interacting in an

820
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:49,850
inexplicable as yet unknown ways with an

821
00:33:54,010 --> 00:33:52,310
external anomalous stimulus not

822
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:54,020
necessarily extraterrestrial and not

823
00:33:57,370 --> 00:33:55,090
necessarily

824
00:34:01,090 --> 00:33:57,380
intelligent or conscious but some kind

825
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:01,100
of external you know force

826
00:34:05,860 --> 00:34:04,130
and the results of the of the of the

827
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:05,870
meshing there is some kind of a

828
00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:08,240
co-created event that again is filtered

829
00:34:12,669 --> 00:34:11,089
through cultural frameworks etc so these

830
00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:12,679
are some of the ideas that are explored

831
00:34:16,919 --> 00:34:13,790
in the book there are much more

832
00:34:21,579 --> 00:34:16,929
conventional and much more materialistic

833
00:34:24,089 --> 00:34:21,589
ideas that are explored as well but the

834
00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:24,099
the idea is is that we're presenting

835
00:34:30,010 --> 00:34:26,740
we're presenting theories ideas

836
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:30,020
approaches questions that that would

837
00:34:34,450 --> 00:34:32,240
challenge that the mainstream are of

838
00:34:38,349 --> 00:34:34,460
ufology which is characterized by you

839
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:38,359
know typical mufon conferences etc where

840
00:34:41,770 --> 00:34:40,310
there's huge leaps in in logic you know

841
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:41,780
you know well we're at a point where

842
00:34:44,649 --> 00:34:42,770
we're just assuming that there are

843
00:34:46,450 --> 00:34:44,659
secrets based programs and that we have

844
00:34:48,309 --> 00:34:46,460
huge you know long-standing

845
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:48,319
intergalactic treaties with multiple

846
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:50,810
species of blue avians and things things

847
00:34:55,419 --> 00:34:53,839
like that right well where it's but you

848
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:55,429
know it's something out of a space opera

849
00:35:00,640 --> 00:34:58,130
it's more like Star Wars now and and

850
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:00,650
that frightening Lee is is really

851
00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:03,200
dominating popular you for logical

852
00:35:06,250 --> 00:35:05,180
discussion that isn't what we were just

853
00:35:09,220 --> 00:35:06,260
talking about and that isn't what

854
00:35:10,329 --> 00:35:09,230
Stanton's no it's not no of course it's

855
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:10,339
no of course it's not I've gone off and

856
00:35:13,390 --> 00:35:11,930
I've gone off an attention that and let

857
00:35:16,059 --> 00:35:13,400
me just kind of jump in there because I

858
00:35:17,770 --> 00:35:16,069
think that you know in this kind of

859
00:35:19,630 --> 00:35:17,780
discussion I guess I do take a different

860
00:35:21,550 --> 00:35:19,640
position than you guys I mean first of

861
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:21,560
all when we whenever we talk about proof

862
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:24,170
I'm always really really sensitive to

863
00:35:29,589 --> 00:35:27,650
that I mean what we understand from

864
00:35:31,809 --> 00:35:29,599
consciousness what we understand from

865
00:35:33,819 --> 00:35:31,819
quantum physics if we will what it's

866
00:35:36,970 --> 00:35:33,829
really told us at the end of the day and

867
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:36,980
what physicists understand even though

868
00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:38,930
like people like to sprinkle woowoo on

869
00:35:43,870 --> 00:35:41,119
it and all the rest of that is this idea

870
00:35:47,140 --> 00:35:43,880
of measuring this idea of proof this

871
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:47,150
idea of consensus reality doesn't exist

872
00:35:50,859 --> 00:35:49,130
so when we say the recent proof of this

873
00:35:53,050 --> 00:35:50,869
our reason for there isn't proof of that

874
00:35:55,300 --> 00:35:53,060
of course not there isn't proof of

875
00:35:58,030 --> 00:35:55,310
anything what we're doing by under

876
00:36:00,010 --> 00:35:58,040
engaging in this conversation engaging

877
00:36:03,370 --> 00:36:00,020
this research is playing this little

878
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:03,380
game called consensus reality I see you

879
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:06,290
on through the webcam you see me neither

880
00:36:10,690 --> 00:36:08,450
one of us may be real but we're going to

881
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:10,700
pretend like we are real in order to

882
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:13,609
facilitate a meaningful discussion so if

883
00:36:16,030 --> 00:36:14,720
we acknowledge for

884
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:16,040
first off that were playing this game

885
00:36:20,050 --> 00:36:18,530
called consensus reality to even engage

886
00:36:22,930 --> 00:36:20,060
in the debate I think that's the

887
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:22,940
starting point but Robert to say that

888
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:24,800
he's taking a huge leap in the wrong

889
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:27,890
direction I completely disagree he's

890
00:36:33,540 --> 00:36:30,320
taking a huge leap in the exact right

891
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:33,550
direction again the dominant paradigm

892
00:36:40,030 --> 00:36:37,910
inside of our culture inside of

893
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:40,040
particularly our science community

894
00:36:44,740 --> 00:36:42,650
inside the heads of those guys who wrote

895
00:36:47,830 --> 00:36:44,750
those terrible reviews of you guys in

896
00:36:50,260 --> 00:36:47,840
Amazon was the idea that the

897
00:36:52,690 --> 00:36:50,270
consciousness inside your head is

898
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:52,700
limited to inside your head it doesn't

899
00:36:59,620 --> 00:36:56,810
extend outside of that to go where

900
00:37:02,890 --> 00:36:59,630
stanton is going it where stan is going

901
00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:02,900
in terms of saying that telekinesis mind

902
00:37:11,890 --> 00:37:06,320
control and again it's just a short step

903
00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:11,900
to faerie dumb and magic demonology all

904
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:14,390
the rest which is very interesting in

905
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:17,450
this discussion that he's already taken

906
00:37:24,070 --> 00:37:22,130
the biggest leap there so maybe I did

907
00:37:27,820 --> 00:37:24,080
Robert I'd like to get you to respond to

908
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:27,830
that part sure you know in joshua kuch

909
00:37:32,410 --> 00:37:30,320
ins si in for a penny in for a pound he

910
00:37:33,609 --> 00:37:32,420
makes the anti materialist argument that

911
00:37:35,170 --> 00:37:33,619
says well if you're gonna go against

912
00:37:37,420 --> 00:37:35,180
materialism why not go all the way and

913
00:37:39,970 --> 00:37:37,430
take it all the way down and the things

914
00:37:42,609 --> 00:37:39,980
that you're talking about there though I

915
00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:42,619
think those are a continuum of some

916
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:44,030
might call a rational thinking or

917
00:37:47,950 --> 00:37:45,650
magical thinking or creative thinking

918
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:47,960
and I honestly I subscribe to all of

919
00:37:52,180 --> 00:37:49,520
those those components and

920
00:37:54,990 --> 00:37:52,190
elements but I also want to try to get

921
00:37:58,450 --> 00:37:55,000
at the conundrum of of ufology in a way

922
00:38:01,150 --> 00:37:58,460
that can in fact be maybe some kind of a

923
00:38:02,410 --> 00:38:01,160
replicated piece of study and I think

924
00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:02,420
every time somebody tells you a story

925
00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:04,460
that says and this is what I heard

926
00:38:08,140 --> 00:38:06,320
inside my head and if we're going to

927
00:38:10,329 --> 00:38:08,150
take that as you know veridical truth

928
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:10,339
then we we're gonna have a very

929
00:38:14,589 --> 00:38:12,890
difficult time in operating this thing

930
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:14,599
called called planet Earth and get

931
00:38:18,609 --> 00:38:16,400
anything done because wait a minute

932
00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:18,619
don't we want it don't we want to try

933
00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:21,140
and move in that direction I mean what

934
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:22,910
is the alternative we're trying to take

935
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:24,290
these experiences and then we're trying

936
00:38:28,549 --> 00:38:27,200
to use the best methods that we have and

937
00:38:31,390 --> 00:38:28,559
some of them are scientific

938
00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:31,400
methods and apply them to sift through

939
00:38:35,569 --> 00:38:33,689
the best we can't organize and

940
00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:35,579
understand what that reality is what's

941
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:38,609
what is the alternative I think the

942
00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:40,170
alternative is you know is the model

943
00:38:43,729 --> 00:38:42,180
that that Greg and myself put forward as

944
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:43,739
the two essays at the close of the book

945
00:38:48,589 --> 00:38:45,930
that makes a suggestion that the

946
00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:48,599
participatory reality might be something

947
00:38:52,849 --> 00:38:50,609
that's closer to truth as opposed to

948
00:38:54,499 --> 00:38:52,859
just relying on the fact that there's an

949
00:38:57,529 --> 00:38:54,509
external agent that's operating inside

950
00:38:59,929 --> 00:38:57,539
of our minds or relying on magical

951
00:39:01,819 --> 00:38:59,939
thinking as the the only possible way I

952
00:39:03,890 --> 00:39:01,829
think that this concept or issue of

953
00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:03,900
consciousness and how it works is

954
00:39:08,089 --> 00:39:05,880
obviously highly complex and it's what

955
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:08,099
the the big leading studies are and I

956
00:39:12,529 --> 00:39:10,079
notions around quantum biology seem to

957
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:12,539
leave us a lot of room for the world of

958
00:39:17,299 --> 00:39:15,119
parapsychological to exist very well in

959
00:39:19,429 --> 00:39:17,309
a very strong way inside of how

960
00:39:21,469 --> 00:39:19,439
consciousness operates but I would like

961
00:39:24,349 --> 00:39:21,479
to say that before we make that leap

962
00:39:26,660 --> 00:39:24,359
let's get a better handle on these

963
00:39:28,549 --> 00:39:26,670
issues called perception and cognition

964
00:39:31,219 --> 00:39:28,559
because those are things that we can

965
00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:31,229
measure and we can't test those pieces

966
00:39:35,449 --> 00:39:33,150
and when we look at the scientific

967
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:35,459
studies that have done testing pieces

968
00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:38,249
around either remote viewing or

969
00:39:42,499 --> 00:39:40,380
near-death experiences

970
00:39:44,479 --> 00:39:42,509
the recent aware study all of these

971
00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:44,489
pieces don't seem to be able to produce

972
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:46,920
you know consistent results in a way

973
00:39:51,769 --> 00:39:48,569
that we can say yeah that's exactly

974
00:39:54,019 --> 00:39:51,779
what's happening so I won't discount

975
00:39:56,299 --> 00:39:54,029
that the possibility and potentials for

976
00:39:58,130 --> 00:39:56,309
consciousness to be non-local and for

977
00:40:00,489 --> 00:39:58,140
the nature of human experience to be

978
00:40:03,380 --> 00:40:00,499
wide diverse and perhaps go beyond death

979
00:40:05,959 --> 00:40:03,390
but that's not what's happening to me

980
00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:05,969
right now and when I look at the stories

981
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:07,140
that but that's what the evidence

982
00:40:11,839 --> 00:40:09,839
suggests I mean you can you can sort

983
00:40:14,839 --> 00:40:11,849
know the story suggests that the story

984
00:40:16,609 --> 00:40:14,849
all just hold on hold on let's I mean

985
00:40:18,890 --> 00:40:16,619
I've done a hundred shows on

986
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:18,900
near-death experience I'd love to engage

987
00:40:23,839 --> 00:40:21,839
in that discussion because clearly what

988
00:40:27,019 --> 00:40:23,849
what the near-death experience science

989
00:40:29,650 --> 00:40:27,029
tells us is by this by all the means we

990
00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:29,660
have of understanding our biological

991
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:31,609
existence that we call life

992
00:40:37,459 --> 00:40:34,319
consciousness as we understand it

993
00:40:41,780 --> 00:40:37,469
extends beyond our bodily death that's a

994
00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:41,790
given that blows the paradigm away so a

995
00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:44,670
again I'm not sure I'm not sure how you

996
00:40:49,580 --> 00:40:46,920
pack that back into uh what were you

997
00:40:53,420 --> 00:40:49,590
calling a participatory understanding of

998
00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:53,430
sure conscious co-creation hypothesis is

999
00:40:58,370 --> 00:40:56,030
what you know Greg uses as a model for

1000
00:41:00,980 --> 00:40:58,380
ufology or or it's like a super-sized

1001
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:00,990
kind of thing I don't think so I think

1002
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:02,700
it recognizes that the way that

1003
00:41:08,090 --> 00:41:05,910
perception takes place is that we

1004
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:08,100
ourselves are incredible participants in

1005
00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:09,690
the nature of perception in terms of

1006
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:10,920
things that happen inside of our minds

1007
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:12,450
and those things are based on our

1008
00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:14,370
biology around our culture around our

1009
00:41:17,690 --> 00:41:16,200
personal training and experiences that

1010
00:41:19,460 --> 00:41:17,700
we've had and the brain just

1011
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:19,470
calculations for us and we also

1012
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:21,690
understand that the act of seeing really

1013
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:23,490
only records 10% of reality in the

1014
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:25,770
moment the other 90% is constructed out

1015
00:41:32,030 --> 00:41:27,690
of previews so you're a brain based guy

1016
00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:32,040
but my ID once trained well no I would

1017
00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:34,350
not say that I'm not prepared to say

1018
00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:36,510
that I'm just recognizing how brain

1019
00:41:40,070 --> 00:41:38,220
works and I think it's important to look

1020
00:41:41,740 --> 00:41:40,080
at how brain works so when they did the

1021
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,750
aware study and I think that was what

1022
00:41:45,830 --> 00:41:44,160
2009 where they did a global study in

1023
00:41:47,660 --> 00:41:45,840
hospitals around the world and they had

1024
00:41:49,070 --> 00:41:47,670
you know viewing things that people

1025
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:49,080
could see after going into cardiac

1026
00:41:53,330 --> 00:41:50,640
arrest that they could only see from the

1027
00:41:54,890 --> 00:41:53,340
ceiling and they didn't they had one

1028
00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:54,900
case only that they could use and even

1029
00:41:58,130 --> 00:41:56,880
that case couldn't can it prove anything

1030
00:42:00,500 --> 00:41:58,140
so hopefully Robert you're

1031
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:00,510
misrepresenting that research the lead

1032
00:42:05,570 --> 00:42:03,210
investigator dr. Sam Parr Nia who's a

1033
00:42:08,420 --> 00:42:05,580
worldwide recognized expert in

1034
00:42:11,660 --> 00:42:08,430
resuscitation his conclusion is that

1035
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:11,670
consciousness survives bodily death dr.

1036
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:14,720
PIM van Lommel dr. Jeff lung every

1037
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:17,520
researcher who's actively involved in

1038
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:19,710
studying near-death experience has come

1039
00:42:24,050 --> 00:42:21,810
to the same conclusion you can't take

1040
00:42:26,540 --> 00:42:24,060
their work and then just put a spin on

1041
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:26,550
it based on your interpretation of it

1042
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:28,680
you gotta go at least I think as a

1043
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:30,690
starting point with their conclusion

1044
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:33,210
don't you now I think you got to go at a

1045
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:35,040
starting point of the conclusions of

1046
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:36,570
everybody else and other doctors

1047
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,610
surrounding them who are saying that we

1048
00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:41,040
don't have evidence for this so what I

1049
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:42,510
will go with though is I'll go with

1050
00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:44,850
somebody like Stuart Hameroff who gives

1051
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:46,800
a scientific possibility for how

1052
00:42:51,170 --> 00:42:49,170
consciousness can be non-local through

1053
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:51,180
through quantum biology and I can I can

1054
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:52,800
glom onto that a bit and as somebody

1055
00:42:55,250 --> 00:42:54,000
who's you know he's also the in

1056
00:42:57,380 --> 00:42:55,260
aesthetician who's

1057
00:42:58,670 --> 00:42:57,390
gazillions of near-death experiences and

1058
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:58,680
he has to admit at the end of the day

1059
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:00,720
but I've got our anecdotal pieces I've

1060
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:02,310
got incredible stories and we've got

1061
00:43:05,180 --> 00:43:03,330
incredible stories of reincarnation

1062
00:43:07,370 --> 00:43:05,190
near-death experience that you read them

1063
00:43:09,590 --> 00:43:07,380
on the face of it they go oh my goodness

1064
00:43:11,270 --> 00:43:09,600
it's true and and you can do the same

1065
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:11,280
with a lot of youth illogical stories as

1066
00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:14,400
well too although being in a turtle is a

1067
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:16,260
TED assist and I'm gonna give doubt back

1068
00:43:21,020 --> 00:43:18,090
to you when we talk about being doubtful

1069
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:21,030
I can't say that that's the be-all and

1070
00:43:25,460 --> 00:43:23,010
end-all answer by a group of people who

1071
00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:25,470
believe very strongly in a certain field

1072
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:27,150
and that they've got confirmation of it

1073
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:29,250
through the anecdotal stories I'd like

1074
00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:31,530
to see things replicated I'd like to see

1075
00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:34,200
things be studied in ways that we can

1076
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:36,270
reproduce it and say yeah we've got a

1077
00:43:40,460 --> 00:43:38,730
marker for that it's true and we can't

1078
00:43:41,810 --> 00:43:40,470
do that with ufology and they've

1079
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:41,820
attempted to do it with near-death

1080
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:43,890
experiences and I would say that there's

1081
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:45,570
more proof that they didn't get

1082
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:47,010
something tangible that they could come

1083
00:43:50,510 --> 00:43:48,570
back to the scientific community and say

1084
00:43:52,340 --> 00:43:50,520
yeah consciousness is non-local we

1085
00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:52,350
survive afterwards I'd love to believe

1086
00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:54,030
we survive afterwards I'm enamoured with

1087
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:55,470
the stories of that they're replete

1088
00:43:59,450 --> 00:43:56,850
throughout my family history and

1089
00:44:01,490 --> 00:43:59,460
everybody's got those stories but I also

1090
00:44:03,530 --> 00:44:01,500
want to be able to to say well but this

1091
00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:03,540
is what's reproducible and this is what

1092
00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:05,550
we can measure and say yeah it's

1093
00:44:09,830 --> 00:44:08,160
actually there well this is turning into

1094
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:09,840
a very interesting interesting

1095
00:44:14,750 --> 00:44:12,330
discussion about so many the

1096
00:44:16,820 --> 00:44:14,760
wide-ranging issues and I think it also

1097
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:16,830
touches then in the process of doing

1098
00:44:22,070 --> 00:44:20,370
that on the personal aspect of doing

1099
00:44:24,650 --> 00:44:22,080
this kind of work and being brave enough

1100
00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:24,660
to ask these kind of questions and that

1101
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:26,910
leads me into something I wanted to

1102
00:44:32,750 --> 00:44:29,450
bring up with you Robbie because I

1103
00:44:36,890 --> 00:44:32,760
commend you both for being brave enough

1104
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:36,900
to kind of look at this stuff and then

1105
00:44:40,340 --> 00:44:39,330
be controversial a kind of clastic and

1106
00:44:42,530 --> 00:44:40,350
all the rest of that because we have to

1107
00:44:46,370 --> 00:44:42,540
acknowledge in our little community here

1108
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:46,380
that 99% of people aren't asking these

1109
00:44:51,140 --> 00:44:48,210
kinds of questions at least at this

1110
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:51,150
level so I think it's awesome

1111
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:53,250
that you're doing that but I think their

1112
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:55,770
struggles with it as well in terms of

1113
00:45:00,140 --> 00:44:57,450
personally and and all the rest of that

1114
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:00,150
let me play a clip from that I pulled

1115
00:45:04,220 --> 00:45:01,770
from a presentation that you gave a

1116
00:45:05,260 --> 00:45:04,230
while back on this very excellent book

1117
00:45:08,210 --> 00:45:05,270
you wrote a couple years ago

1118
00:45:09,050 --> 00:45:08,220
silver-screen saucers I think it'll be

1119
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:09,060
self explain

1120
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:12,090
taury in terms of shoehorning us into

1121
00:45:18,530 --> 00:45:16,890
this next discussion topic while many

1122
00:45:20,060 --> 00:45:18,540
UFO researchers undoubtedly would

1123
00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:20,070
consider their vocation or hobby a

1124
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:22,320
selfless one I regard my own obsession

1125
00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:24,090
with the subject and it's fair to say

1126
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:26,820
that I am or rather I was obsessed to be

1127
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:29,280
hugely self-indulgent I've dedicated the

1128
00:45:32,270 --> 00:45:30,690
past several years of my life to the

1129
00:45:33,830 --> 00:45:32,280
study of UFOs and specifically to

1130
00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:33,840
Hollywood's depictions of the phenomenon

1131
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:36,180
but to what justifiable end I can't say

1132
00:45:40,430 --> 00:45:38,490
I find the world around me to be

1133
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:40,440
enchanting but also deeply troubling and

1134
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:42,960
alienating UFOs offered me an escape

1135
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:45,690
into the unknown and unknowable this

1136
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:47,370
appeals to me beyond my means to express

1137
00:45:51,950 --> 00:45:49,770
I want so much to be part of something

1138
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:51,960
greater than myself to expand my

1139
00:45:54,950 --> 00:45:53,280
experience or boundaries through

1140
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:54,960
otherworldly knowledge that I've

1141
00:45:58,400 --> 00:45:56,730
wilfully removed myself from the world I

1142
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:58,410
would see changed and blinded myself to

1143
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:00,000
the truth I've thought all along which

1144
00:46:05,330 --> 00:46:03,210
is ironic I guess my first question is

1145
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:05,340
really come on I think it'd be way too

1146
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:06,510
hard on yourself

1147
00:46:12,770 --> 00:46:10,770
I think a great job of tackling the most

1148
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:12,780
deep profound questions that we can

1149
00:46:20,540 --> 00:46:16,170
possibly ask what do you mean well that

1150
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:20,550
yeah so that statement that I was giving

1151
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:22,770
there was at the end of a lecture and a

1152
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:24,690
presentation I was delivering in Denmark

1153
00:46:31,940 --> 00:46:29,210
in 2014 and it was sprung from an

1154
00:46:35,330 --> 00:46:31,950
article a cathartic article that I wrote

1155
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:35,340
in 2013 on my old blog which is now gone

1156
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:37,170
and the article I wrote was called

1157
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:39,330
letting go of UFOs and it was the result

1158
00:46:45,140 --> 00:46:43,110
of several years of growing

1159
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:45,150
disillusionment on my part with the UFO

1160
00:46:50,830 --> 00:46:47,970
field not the subject itself not the

1161
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:50,840
phenomenon but but but the study of it

1162
00:46:59,600 --> 00:46:55,290
and so-called ufology and you know and

1163
00:47:02,240 --> 00:46:59,610
I'd sort of gone through I guess a an

1164
00:47:07,370 --> 00:47:02,250
awakening you want to use those terms or

1165
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:07,380
a reassessment of my own attraction to

1166
00:47:11,930 --> 00:47:10,410
the subject you know why was I studying

1167
00:47:17,210 --> 00:47:11,940
this why was i interested in hawaii i

1168
00:47:19,670 --> 00:47:17,220
devoted so much of my life to it and you

1169
00:47:21,530 --> 00:47:19,680
know and what what had it got me had it

1170
00:47:22,910 --> 00:47:21,540
had it been a positive influence in my

1171
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:22,920
life cause this is a very subject

1172
00:47:32,030 --> 00:47:25,530
very personal questions that I was

1173
00:47:35,089 --> 00:47:32,040
asking of myself and and I started to

1174
00:47:38,809 --> 00:47:35,099
push myself and into uncomfortable

1175
00:47:40,730 --> 00:47:38,819
territory and ask you know but it just

1176
00:47:43,069 --> 00:47:40,740
sort of force myself to recognize some

1177
00:47:45,380 --> 00:47:43,079
uncomfortable truths you know one was

1178
00:47:49,010 --> 00:47:45,390
that you know up to this point I'd been

1179
00:47:50,539 --> 00:47:49,020
I had been the hardcore et HS that I've

1180
00:47:53,450 --> 00:47:50,549
been describing an earlier part of our

1181
00:47:54,829 --> 00:47:53,460
conversation here Alex I you know as

1182
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:54,839
most people most people who get into

1183
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:56,970
inter UFO field they come in through the

1184
00:48:02,720 --> 00:47:59,119
e th paradigm and they stick to it and

1185
00:48:06,289 --> 00:48:02,730
become more attached to it as it as they

1186
00:48:08,780 --> 00:48:06,299
go on and and once it's got yeah it's

1187
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:08,790
kind of hard to shake it and in my

1188
00:48:13,010 --> 00:48:10,410
experience though people very few people

1189
00:48:14,690 --> 00:48:13,020
actually do and I haven't I haven't

1190
00:48:18,530 --> 00:48:14,700
shaken it as I said I think it's a valid

1191
00:48:20,930 --> 00:48:18,540
hypothesis but but I've expanded my my

1192
00:48:24,950 --> 00:48:20,940
my perspective I would say and I had to

1193
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:24,960
force myself to do that and the essay

1194
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:26,490
that the the article that I wrote back

1195
00:48:32,539 --> 00:48:29,280
in 2013 was was kind of an actualization

1196
00:48:35,569 --> 00:48:32,549
of these ideas that had been going

1197
00:48:37,130 --> 00:48:35,579
around in my brain and the writing of

1198
00:48:39,020 --> 00:48:37,140
the article where I vented all my

1199
00:48:42,859 --> 00:48:39,030
frustration about the field and things

1200
00:48:45,490 --> 00:48:42,869
like that it served as I said a service

1201
00:48:48,020 --> 00:48:45,500
catharsis it was it actually served to

1202
00:48:51,950 --> 00:48:48,030
as a first step towards actually letting

1203
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:51,960
go of the crutch of the UFO and a lot of

1204
00:48:55,849 --> 00:48:54,690
people have this crutch you know and you

1205
00:48:57,370 --> 00:48:55,859
know we're talking here along religious

1206
00:49:01,970 --> 00:48:57,380
lines

1207
00:49:04,339 --> 00:49:01,980
i-i-i contend that ufology is a New Age

1208
00:49:06,170 --> 00:49:04,349
religion which is frustrating because

1209
00:49:07,370 --> 00:49:06,180
it's it's a new age religion that sprung

1210
00:49:09,140 --> 00:49:07,380
from something that appears to be

1211
00:49:12,799 --> 00:49:09,150
genuinely genuinely anomalous and

1212
00:49:14,180 --> 00:49:12,809
potentially profoundly important and but

1213
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:14,190
never but nonetheless the phenomenon

1214
00:49:21,230 --> 00:49:17,250
itself lends itself to to faith-based

1215
00:49:23,660 --> 00:49:21,240
religious interpretations and so you

1216
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:23,670
know I started to recognize that indeed

1217
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:26,730
this was this was faith this was a

1218
00:49:32,599 --> 00:49:30,690
faith-based field to a large extent

1219
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:32,609
although there is some science done and

1220
00:49:35,299 --> 00:49:34,140
has been some science done and continues

1221
00:49:36,690 --> 00:49:35,309
to be some science done it's largely a

1222
00:49:41,309 --> 00:49:36,700
faith-based field

1223
00:49:42,779 --> 00:49:41,319
and you know I sort of sort of trustees

1224
00:49:44,609 --> 00:49:42,789
I say very difficult questions of myself

1225
00:49:46,529 --> 00:49:44,619
and so eventually the the article that I

1226
00:49:48,769 --> 00:49:46,539
wrote actually turned into a lecture

1227
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:48,779
which I delivered in in here in the UK

1228
00:49:54,539 --> 00:49:51,490
and I delivered in Denmark I delivered

1229
00:49:58,259 --> 00:49:54,549
it twice in total and the response to it

1230
00:50:00,000 --> 00:49:58,269
was was interesting I thought I would be

1231
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:00,010
booed out of the room and the first time

1232
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:02,170
I delivered the lecture in England but I

1233
00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:06,730
received a standing ovation and that was

1234
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:08,710
a real shock to me because it kind of

1235
00:50:13,559 --> 00:50:10,960
took the pulse of where people were at

1236
00:50:15,329 --> 00:50:13,569
least in the British UFO community and I

1237
00:50:18,660 --> 00:50:15,339
think they shared the frustrations that

1238
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:18,670
I was venting in Denmark it was a more

1239
00:50:25,259 --> 00:50:23,200
muted response but but but basically it

1240
00:50:27,299 --> 00:50:25,269
was the article that I wrote and the

1241
00:50:29,670 --> 00:50:27,309
lectures that I gave that ultimately led

1242
00:50:32,490 --> 00:50:29,680
to this book though that was the

1243
00:50:34,819 --> 00:50:32,500
groundwork that became this book so was

1244
00:50:38,099 --> 00:50:34,829
it good then was it part of this

1245
00:50:40,170 --> 00:50:38,109
evolution towards I don't want to say

1246
00:50:42,509 --> 00:50:40,180
spiritual but I'm gonna say spiritual

1247
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:42,519
this kind of deep spirituality that

1248
00:50:50,789 --> 00:50:47,650
seems to be somehow mixed in with the

1249
00:50:53,279 --> 00:50:50,799
UFO experience was that for you part of

1250
00:50:57,359 --> 00:50:53,289
the journey and is that an end point or

1251
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:57,369
a point where you're right now I don't

1252
00:51:01,079 --> 00:50:59,200
feel I'm any more or less spiritual and

1253
00:51:02,940 --> 00:51:01,089
I then I was when I you know when I

1254
00:51:06,150 --> 00:51:02,950
first became attracted to the subject

1255
00:51:08,690 --> 00:51:06,160
when I was a teenager you know I

1256
00:51:14,749 --> 00:51:08,700
consider myself to be a spiritual person

1257
00:51:19,529 --> 00:51:14,759
but but I I've shaken my dogmatic

1258
00:51:20,970 --> 00:51:19,539
attachment to you know two UFOs I think

1259
00:51:24,749 --> 00:51:20,980
I can say that quite honestly and

1260
00:51:27,740 --> 00:51:24,759
comfortably now I really just have as I

1261
00:51:31,470 --> 00:51:27,750
say I I just do not know

1262
00:51:32,819 --> 00:51:31,480
you know Miguel Romero red pill junkie

1263
00:51:35,069 --> 00:51:32,829
who wrote one of the essays in this book

1264
00:51:36,029 --> 00:51:35,079
he recently said in another interview he

1265
00:51:38,789 --> 00:51:36,039
said you know we need to acknowledge

1266
00:51:42,690 --> 00:51:38,799
that we don't know we don't know if

1267
00:51:45,059 --> 00:51:42,700
about UFOs and we says he said some we

1268
00:51:46,529 --> 00:51:45,069
don't know dick about UFOs and and

1269
00:51:49,799 --> 00:51:46,539
that's true you know and I said that

1270
00:51:52,410 --> 00:51:49,809
could be a story I don't think

1271
00:51:54,689 --> 00:51:52,420
well well we we know we can study that

1272
00:51:55,979 --> 00:51:54,699
we can we can speak with earth I you

1273
00:51:57,269 --> 00:51:55,989
know for example my background is film

1274
00:51:59,789 --> 00:51:57,279
studies and Media Studies and I can

1275
00:52:01,439 --> 00:51:59,799
speak with authority on on on on

1276
00:52:04,410 --> 00:52:01,449
Hollywood's historical representations

1277
00:52:06,179 --> 00:52:04,420
of UFO phenomena other people can talk

1278
00:52:08,849 --> 00:52:06,189
with it with with confidence and

1279
00:52:11,459 --> 00:52:08,859
knowledge about different forms and

1280
00:52:13,759 --> 00:52:11,469
manifestations that UFOs take we you

1281
00:52:16,289 --> 00:52:13,769
know we can study UFOs from different

1282
00:52:17,789 --> 00:52:16,299
disciplines and and we can have

1283
00:52:20,099 --> 00:52:17,799
knowledge within those disciplines but

1284
00:52:22,170 --> 00:52:20,109
when it comes to the underlying nature

1285
00:52:25,019 --> 00:52:22,180
of the UFO phenomenon the ultimate

1286
00:52:28,739 --> 00:52:25,029
stimulus we are no better informed today

1287
00:52:29,549 --> 00:52:28,749
than we were in 1947 so the the book

1288
00:52:31,589 --> 00:52:29,559
again

1289
00:52:33,749 --> 00:52:31,599
UFOs reframing a debate is this

1290
00:52:34,349 --> 00:52:33,759
collection of essays thirteen and all

1291
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:34,359
right

1292
00:52:39,689 --> 00:52:37,180
fourteen fourteen and a fourteen

1293
00:52:42,029 --> 00:52:39,699
fourteen and a and a foreword by M

1294
00:52:44,130 --> 00:52:42,039
Professor Dana Walsh Basilica which is

1295
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:44,140
again looking at UFOs through the lens

1296
00:52:48,829 --> 00:52:45,609
of religion and I'm a sort of

1297
00:52:50,999 --> 00:52:48,839
front-loaded the book pieces with a

1298
00:52:52,620 --> 00:52:51,009
friend alleges book with pieces on

1299
00:52:54,059 --> 00:52:52,630
religion because as I say you know the

1300
00:52:56,099 --> 00:52:54,069
religious aspects if you have a belief

1301
00:52:58,049 --> 00:52:56,109
are to me undeniable and but but it you

1302
00:53:00,660 --> 00:52:58,059
know and I say that I think it's

1303
00:53:01,859 --> 00:53:00,670
important to point that out because once

1304
00:53:03,419 --> 00:53:01,869
you acknowledge that you can meet you

1305
00:53:04,979 --> 00:53:03,429
can sort of circle that's fine but

1306
00:53:08,969 --> 00:53:04,989
there's still stuff to study but once we

1307
00:53:10,890 --> 00:53:08,979
sort of recognize the you know the face

1308
00:53:13,410 --> 00:53:10,900
the faith that's attached to it and the

1309
00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:13,420
blindness that comes with that we can

1310
00:53:17,489 --> 00:53:15,910
start to see a bit more clearly and I

1311
00:53:18,929 --> 00:53:17,499
also say that you know followers of the

1312
00:53:20,489 --> 00:53:18,939
relative the author religion should take

1313
00:53:22,919 --> 00:53:20,499
caution because you know powerful belief

1314
00:53:24,359 --> 00:53:22,929
in anything can be exploited whether you

1315
00:53:26,729 --> 00:53:24,369
know by sinister government forces

1316
00:53:29,819 --> 00:53:26,739
awesomely by charlatans let's talk about

1317
00:53:31,589 --> 00:53:29,829
sinister government forces so the first

1318
00:53:33,689 --> 00:53:31,599
thing I want to do is T people up to the

1319
00:53:36,539 --> 00:53:33,699
idea that there's a lot of different

1320
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:36,549
essays you've heard a couple of

1321
00:53:40,019 --> 00:53:38,170
different opinions and Robert has even

1322
00:53:41,669 --> 00:53:40,029
referenced a couple other people like

1323
00:53:44,759 --> 00:53:41,679
Joshua kitchens who's been on this show

1324
00:53:47,609 --> 00:53:44,769
before and is really interesting guy and

1325
00:53:49,789 --> 00:53:47,619
has written some some great books one

1326
00:53:51,779 --> 00:53:49,799
last topic before I let you guys go

1327
00:53:54,660 --> 00:53:51,789
because again you have such an

1328
00:53:59,489 --> 00:53:54,670
interesting kind of alternative take on

1329
00:54:03,089 --> 00:53:59,499
it and that is disclosure so what is

1330
00:54:04,349 --> 00:54:03,099
disclosure when we use that word

1331
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:04,359
but you want to go first on disclosure

1332
00:54:08,969 --> 00:54:06,970
yeah but what I would say is I would you

1333
00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:08,979
know go along with I think it's Lauren

1334
00:54:12,690 --> 00:54:10,569
cuts that talks about that notion that

1335
00:54:15,569 --> 00:54:12,700
we have this strange belief that the

1336
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:15,579
government you know has has evidence of

1337
00:54:20,549 --> 00:54:17,920
alien contact has reverse engineered

1338
00:54:22,890 --> 00:54:20,559
machines etc and that we are aware that

1339
00:54:25,529 --> 00:54:22,900
they've been entirely deceptive with the

1340
00:54:27,779 --> 00:54:25,539
UFO history and have been manipulating

1341
00:54:30,359 --> 00:54:27,789
the masses with it for a long time and

1342
00:54:32,099 --> 00:54:30,369
yet we expect that somehow they are

1343
00:54:33,930 --> 00:54:32,109
going to be kind and good and somehow

1344
00:54:35,729 --> 00:54:33,940
disclose and tell us the truth so I

1345
00:54:38,579 --> 00:54:35,739
think it's an absolute utter waste of

1346
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:38,589
time to go down that road and it's it's

1347
00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:40,569
and it's a time kicker and I think the

1348
00:54:45,390 --> 00:54:42,910
part that to me is much more valuable is

1349
00:54:47,519 --> 00:54:45,400
what happens when we start stop thinking

1350
00:54:50,130 --> 00:54:47,529
about things like disclosure and in the

1351
00:54:51,390 --> 00:54:50,140
ETH and what new paradigms open up and

1352
00:54:53,009 --> 00:54:51,400
Alex you talked about that idea of

1353
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:53,019
spirituality I think there are so many

1354
00:54:58,170 --> 00:54:55,839
more dynamic paradigms that open up when

1355
00:55:00,660 --> 00:54:58,180
we don't limit the study of UFOs to the

1356
00:55:02,339 --> 00:55:00,670
ETH and we allow ourselves to explore

1357
00:55:03,630 --> 00:55:02,349
all these other lovely realms that have

1358
00:55:05,789 --> 00:55:03,640
been dancing around the edges of our

1359
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:05,799
conversation from neuroscience to

1360
00:55:09,930 --> 00:55:07,650
quantum mechanics sociology psychology

1361
00:55:13,170 --> 00:55:09,940
psychedelics biology politics philosophy

1362
00:55:16,769 --> 00:55:13,180
they all seem to have a purchase point

1363
00:55:18,299 --> 00:55:16,779
inside the UFO mystery and and I think

1364
00:55:20,819 --> 00:55:18,309
there's some really good positive deeper

1365
00:55:22,349 --> 00:55:20,829
understandings we can get by by going

1366
00:55:24,599 --> 00:55:22,359
down those roads and see what can we

1367
00:55:26,249 --> 00:55:24,609
learn about ourselves along the way as

1368
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:26,259
opposed to waiting for the government

1369
00:55:30,509 --> 00:55:28,690
who we know is manipulating the story to

1370
00:55:32,059 --> 00:55:30,519
somehow you know give us the goods on it

1371
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:32,069
I think that's an absolute waste of time

1372
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:34,960
ok well let me jump in there on

1373
00:55:38,759 --> 00:55:37,210
disclosure because I totally get where

1374
00:55:40,859 --> 00:55:38,769
you're coming from but at the same time

1375
00:55:42,930 --> 00:55:40,869
I love the quote from my friend Jeff

1376
00:55:46,019 --> 00:55:42,940
riddle who said we start in the middle

1377
00:55:48,930 --> 00:55:46,029
and we end in the middle so at at this

1378
00:55:51,329 --> 00:55:48,940
point where we're at now we have the

1379
00:55:54,959 --> 00:55:51,339
dominant control mechanism in our

1380
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:54,969
culture who as you say knows something

1381
00:56:00,779 --> 00:55:58,210
and is withholding something and even

1382
00:56:03,359 --> 00:56:00,789
worse they are intentionally misleading

1383
00:56:05,099 --> 00:56:03,369
us in a direction and we don't even know

1384
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:05,109
why they're doing that so do we want

1385
00:56:10,229 --> 00:56:08,079
that to change of course we want that to

1386
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:10,239
change should we wait and not do

1387
00:56:15,809 --> 00:56:13,450
anything until that changes no but III

1388
00:56:16,829 --> 00:56:15,819
don't quite get where you guys are

1389
00:56:19,709 --> 00:56:16,839
coming from when

1390
00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:19,719
you say don't worry about disclosure or

1391
00:56:25,529 --> 00:56:21,910
you know screw disclosure or anything

1392
00:56:29,279 --> 00:56:25,539
like that I just think we of course we

1393
00:56:30,989 --> 00:56:29,289
want that don't we well so so my

1394
00:56:34,499 --> 00:56:30,999
position on this is I mean it really

1395
00:56:40,249 --> 00:56:34,509
ultimately comes down to where you where

1396
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:45,779
governmental sires right so so the point

1397
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:47,650
is is if you if you if you take them to

1398
00:56:53,930 --> 00:56:50,890
be fundamentally corrupt when it comes

1399
00:56:57,630 --> 00:56:53,940
to issues of national security like this

1400
00:57:00,359 --> 00:56:57,640
and when you recognize that the official

1401
00:57:03,029 --> 00:57:00,369
interactions with the UFO subject have

1402
00:57:05,789 --> 00:57:03,039
been characterized almost exclusively

1403
00:57:09,269 --> 00:57:05,799
for the past 70 years by deception and

1404
00:57:10,650 --> 00:57:09,279
by psychological warfare Wow and this is

1405
00:57:12,809 --> 00:57:10,660
demonstrable through officially

1406
00:57:14,249 --> 00:57:12,819
Declassified documentation its ample

1407
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:14,259
evidence to suggest that you know

1408
00:57:18,719 --> 00:57:16,450
psychological warfare campaigns have

1409
00:57:20,130 --> 00:57:18,729
been waged through through the UFO

1410
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:20,140
community and through the UFO subject

1411
00:57:25,859 --> 00:57:23,200
and an obviously huge evidence of

1412
00:57:28,499 --> 00:57:25,869
historical secrecy on the subject and as

1413
00:57:29,849 --> 00:57:28,509
I say deception so if interactions have

1414
00:57:30,769 --> 00:57:29,859
been characterized exclusively by

1415
00:57:34,529 --> 00:57:30,779
deception

1416
00:57:37,109 --> 00:57:34,539
why do you believe anything that these

1417
00:57:39,180 --> 00:57:37,119
same official bodies have to say on the

1418
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:39,190
UFO subject on on a hypothetical

1419
00:57:43,979 --> 00:57:41,410
disclosure day well you would believe it

1420
00:57:45,779 --> 00:57:43,989
because you desperately want to believe

1421
00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:45,789
you know because an individual

1422
00:57:49,859 --> 00:57:47,529
desperately want to believe it because

1423
00:57:52,049 --> 00:57:49,869
they recognize that they are potentially

1424
00:57:55,709 --> 00:57:52,059
not going to get any conclusive answers

1425
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:55,719
to the phenomenon through you know

1426
00:57:59,640 --> 00:57:56,799
through grassroots study within their

1427
00:58:01,440 --> 00:57:59,650
lifetime and so let's just kind of you

1428
00:58:03,390 --> 00:58:01,450
know pull that pull the wall over over

1429
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:03,400
our own eyes and say okay I'm just gonna

1430
00:58:07,739 --> 00:58:05,410
say I know you're a bunch of liars and

1431
00:58:09,239 --> 00:58:07,749
potential Psychopaths but I'm just gonna

1432
00:58:11,130 --> 00:58:09,249
trust what you tell me because I so

1433
00:58:14,099 --> 00:58:11,140
desperately want you to tell me I've

1434
00:58:15,989 --> 00:58:14,109
been waiting for so long and as long as

1435
00:58:18,900 --> 00:58:15,999
there's aliens in there I'll just take

1436
00:58:22,469 --> 00:58:18,910
it and if you do that well you know good

1437
00:58:24,239 --> 00:58:22,479
you know come on so my position is that

1438
00:58:26,670 --> 00:58:24,249
there's nothing that there is nothing

1439
00:58:28,829 --> 00:58:26,680
that the US government and you know

1440
00:58:30,150 --> 00:58:28,839
nothing is probably the prune out the

1441
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:30,160
right word there's something but I get

1442
00:58:32,830 --> 00:58:30,770
you

1443
00:58:34,530 --> 00:58:32,840
oh no they have I believe that they have

1444
00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:34,540
plenty they're sitting on plenty of

1445
00:58:37,839 --> 00:58:36,800
information and but if the point is even

1446
00:58:39,339 --> 00:58:37,849
if they've been studying this phenomenon

1447
00:58:40,660 --> 00:58:39,349
for all of these years and I'm sure they

1448
00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:40,670
have and there's evidence it's just that

1449
00:58:46,930 --> 00:58:44,960
they have you know again we are we are

1450
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:46,940
although they may throw in billions of

1451
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:50,090
dollars at it over decades we still

1452
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:51,200
that's you know the people who are

1453
00:58:53,859 --> 00:58:52,250
throwing the billions of dollars that

1454
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:53,869
are still monkeys like the rest of us

1455
00:59:00,490 --> 00:58:55,359
we're still an extremely primitive

1456
00:59:02,500 --> 00:59:00,500
species and and there's only so far our

1457
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:02,510
understanding can go regardless of what

1458
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:03,770
technologies are you utilizing to

1459
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:06,290
understand or the phenomena and again if

1460
00:59:09,940 --> 00:59:08,570
we look at what people are actually

1461
00:59:11,380 --> 00:59:09,950
reporting a grassroots level when it

1462
00:59:13,690 --> 00:59:11,390
comes to UFOs these things seems to go

1463
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:13,700
far so I mean they're just so baffling I

1464
00:59:21,570 --> 00:59:18,650
mean truly truly baffling I don't think

1465
00:59:24,070 --> 00:59:21,580
that even after seventy years any any

1466
00:59:26,140 --> 00:59:24,080
agency or organization will have cracked

1467
00:59:27,460 --> 00:59:26,150
the UFO riddle conclusively they will

1468
00:59:28,990 --> 00:59:27,470
have drawn their own conclusions to an

1469
00:59:30,849 --> 00:59:29,000
extent they will have come up with some

1470
00:59:32,140 --> 00:59:30,859
of their own theories but but they

1471
00:59:34,270 --> 00:59:32,150
wouldn't have anything they could

1472
00:59:36,940 --> 00:59:34,280
disclose as saying we've got it this is

1473
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:36,950
what it is okay but let's look Robert in

1474
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:39,530
here Robert though don't we want to at

1475
00:59:43,450 --> 00:59:41,810
least know what they know and we can

1476
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:43,460
draw our own conclusions from it which

1477
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:45,170
we will but don't we want to know what

1478
00:59:51,310 --> 00:59:47,330
they know can I just before Robert I

1479
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:51,320
just can I just say the question you

1480
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:53,119
asked there Alex don't we at least want

1481
00:59:57,099 --> 00:59:54,410
to know what we what they know I would

1482
00:59:59,410 --> 00:59:57,109
reply to that with how can we trust what

1483
01:00:00,579 --> 00:59:59,420
they claim to know and the answer is and

1484
01:00:02,650 --> 01:00:00,589
there's no way going around this that

1485
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:02,660
the answer is we can't we do not know

1486
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:04,970
that we can trust we simply cannot trust

1487
01:00:11,700 --> 01:00:07,280
what what they claim to know and if you

1488
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:11,710
trust it you're nuts

1489
01:00:17,530 --> 01:00:15,530
just and you just you know so there is

1490
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:17,540
simply no way we can trust what they

1491
01:00:21,430 --> 01:00:19,670
know yeah and I think that you know the

1492
01:00:23,589 --> 01:00:21,440
the notion of disclosure is it's an

1493
01:00:25,270 --> 01:00:23,599
ideological position and and I don't

1494
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:25,280
think we can trust them at all in if of

1495
01:00:28,900 --> 01:00:26,570
course we want to know we want to know

1496
01:00:30,250 --> 01:00:28,910
everything so what I'm gonna do is put

1497
01:00:32,020 --> 01:00:30,260
my money instead on one of the leading

1498
01:00:33,970 --> 01:00:32,030
thinkers in the field and that's fell a

1499
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:33,980
and fell a once appointed time was the

1500
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:37,250
leading ETH proponent and then has since

1501
01:00:42,220 --> 01:00:39,290
come around and much like Jerome Clark

1502
01:00:44,110 --> 01:00:42,230
who also says the ETH is insufficient is

1503
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:44,120
suggesting to us that we need to

1504
01:00:47,260 --> 01:00:45,920
of ideology behind that's his most

1505
01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:47,270
recent statement at the gapin

1506
01:00:51,460 --> 01:00:49,040
conferences we've got to stop bringing

1507
01:00:54,130 --> 01:00:51,470
ideology to the table we need to be much

1508
01:00:56,290 --> 01:00:54,140
more open-minded in considering what is

1509
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:56,300
taking place and he also identifies this

1510
01:01:00,340 --> 01:00:58,730
notion that the witness experience is a

1511
01:01:02,380 --> 01:01:00,350
process and we should spend more time

1512
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:02,390
with witnesses so I think this idea of

1513
01:01:06,550 --> 01:01:04,970
looking for a patriarch or for somebody

1514
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:06,560
above us with more power to tell us

1515
01:01:10,180 --> 01:01:08,690
what's really going on is always a

1516
01:01:13,180 --> 01:01:10,190
frustrating space to be and it

1517
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:13,190
disempowers us entirely and if we want

1518
01:01:17,050 --> 01:01:14,690
to go somewhere we're gonna have to be

1519
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:17,060
responsible ourselves and build a true

1520
01:01:21,310 --> 01:01:19,610
field based on whatever you know strong

1521
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:21,320
leading thinkers that we've got in the

1522
01:01:25,300 --> 01:01:23,090
field and and try to follow in those

1523
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:25,310
footsteps because that is a model that

1524
01:01:29,350 --> 01:01:27,650
we know is gonna gain some purchase and

1525
01:01:30,940 --> 01:01:29,360
we're always looking for a battle model

1526
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:30,950
whether it's philosophy or science so

1527
01:01:33,790 --> 01:01:32,570
let's get a better model I'm not gonna

1528
01:01:35,850 --> 01:01:33,800
rely on the government to tell me

1529
01:01:38,380 --> 01:01:35,860
anything at all but I know amongst

1530
01:01:39,940 --> 01:01:38,390
thinkers who want to do well inside the

1531
01:01:42,190 --> 01:01:39,950
field and are honest and are humble and

1532
01:01:44,170 --> 01:01:42,200
don't have ego and not looking for the

1533
01:01:45,940 --> 01:01:44,180
truths they believe to be there I think

1534
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:45,950
there's something very interesting to be

1535
01:01:49,150 --> 01:01:47,210
gained from that and anybody who's

1536
01:01:51,220 --> 01:01:49,160
serious seriously studies ufology will

1537
01:01:53,170 --> 01:01:51,230
run into the leading thinkers and the

1538
01:01:55,570 --> 01:01:53,180
leading thinkers are telling you you

1539
01:01:57,220 --> 01:01:55,580
know what the ETH is insufficient and we

1540
01:01:58,630 --> 01:01:57,230
need a better paradigm and we need to

1541
01:02:01,240 --> 01:01:58,640
work with the witnesses in a more

1542
01:02:04,060 --> 01:02:01,250
sincere and compassionate manner well

1543
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:04,070
the book again folks is ufo's reframing

1544
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:06,050
the debate we've been joined by the

1545
01:02:10,870 --> 01:02:09,050
person who collected it and assembled it

1546
01:02:13,030 --> 01:02:10,880
all and wrote the introduction Robby

1547
01:02:15,340 --> 01:02:13,040
Graham and by one of the contributors

1548
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:15,350
Robert Branstetter I thank you both for

1549
01:02:20,770 --> 01:02:18,410
joining me and congratulations on this

1550
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:20,780
great book thanks so much Alex

1551
01:02:29,610 --> 01:02:24,170
thanks Alex for hosting us all right

1552
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:29,620
guys we're done thank you very much

1553
01:02:37,780 --> 01:02:34,370
thank you gotta do your NDE research man

1554
01:02:41,410 --> 01:02:37,790
you just you gotta do it buddy I did and

1555
01:02:43,510 --> 01:02:41,420
I refuse and you're and you just don't

1556
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:43,520
you don't know I'm a man you just don't

1557
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:45,890
know when you say aware and then you say

1558
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:49,010
aware proves this and the authors the

1559
01:02:52,450 --> 01:02:50,720
the scientists who are involved say

1560
01:02:55,060 --> 01:02:52,460
something completely different and the

1561
01:02:57,900 --> 01:02:55,070
burden is on you man you can't take a

1562
01:03:00,089 --> 01:02:57,910
materialist position to to

1563
01:03:01,740 --> 01:03:00,099
leapfrog your way into an immaterial

1564
01:03:04,220 --> 01:03:01,750
understanding of consciousness

1565
01:03:06,839 --> 01:03:04,230
it just doesn't logically make any sense

1566
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:06,849
yeah I guess I come at it from a

1567
01:03:10,410 --> 01:03:08,410
completely different perspective like I

1568
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:10,420
know that leading philosophical

1569
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:12,730
neuroscience theory tells us that there

1570
01:03:17,339 --> 01:03:15,490
is possibility in room for life after

1571
01:03:20,220 --> 01:03:17,349
death and and I'm good with that

1572
01:03:23,460 --> 01:03:20,230
I'm not good with taking anomalous

1573
01:03:25,710 --> 01:03:23,470
experiences and calling them facts and I

1574
01:03:27,390 --> 01:03:25,720
think that we don't we don't have like

1575
01:03:30,750 --> 01:03:27,400
an you we don't have an equivalent I

1576
01:03:32,700 --> 01:03:30,760
think you know our v47 case in the

1577
01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:32,710
near-death world I've heard the most

1578
01:03:36,059 --> 01:03:34,510
brilliant incredible stories and I've

1579
01:03:38,309 --> 01:03:36,069
heard the doctors talk about it and I

1580
01:03:40,319 --> 01:03:38,319
find them utterly fascinating and

1581
01:03:41,700 --> 01:03:40,329
convincing but I also know in my heart

1582
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:41,710
of heart at the end of the day they're

1583
01:03:47,220 --> 01:03:43,690
telling me a story they're not telling

1584
01:03:49,109 --> 01:03:47,230
me a factual event anomaly that's taking

1585
01:03:51,299 --> 01:03:49,119
place well I don't think you're ever

1586
01:03:55,319 --> 01:03:51,309
gonna get there but by the best means we

1587
01:03:57,870 --> 01:03:55,329
have of science of EEG s of measuring

1588
01:04:00,420 --> 01:03:57,880
people medically I'm telling you with

1589
01:04:01,589 --> 01:04:00,430
aware you have the leading x one of the

1590
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:01,599
leading experts in the world in

1591
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:03,970
resuscitation he knows all about that

1592
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:06,730
stuff and his conclusion and your

1593
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:08,770
response to it as well philosophically

1594
01:04:13,829 --> 01:04:11,200
I'm not there or you want to say you

1595
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:13,839
know what's his name it at Arizona great

1596
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:16,210
guy and I've talked to him but you know

1597
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:18,250
he's not really good I've talked to him

1598
01:04:21,329 --> 01:04:19,450
but listen to my interview about

1599
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:21,339
near-death experience he doesn't say

1600
01:04:25,140 --> 01:04:22,930
that about a near-death experience

1601
01:04:28,529 --> 01:04:25,150
he ki totally backpedals because it

1602
01:04:30,329 --> 01:04:28,539
undermines his his idea of you know

1603
01:04:31,470 --> 01:04:30,339
which is a good idea it's an advancement

1604
01:04:33,390 --> 01:04:31,480
but it just doesn't get there

1605
01:04:39,750 --> 01:04:33,400
consciousness survives death we just got

1606
01:04:41,460 --> 01:04:39,760
to deal with it anyways for what it's

1607
01:04:44,730 --> 01:04:41,470
worth Alex like I agree with you but I'm

1608
01:04:46,049 --> 01:04:44,740
no expert on it but like i I've done

1609
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:46,059
some research and continue to do

1610
01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:50,490
research but like I I don't know I think

1611
01:04:57,740 --> 01:04:54,640
I'd yeah I it's interesting that we

1612
01:05:00,779 --> 01:04:57,750
split we spent so long on that in in a

1613
01:05:02,789 --> 01:05:00,789
conversation and I don't think we did I

1614
01:05:03,870 --> 01:05:02,799
don't think it's gonna no me no me no no

1615
01:05:05,010 --> 01:05:03,880
I mean no I mean I think that was good

1616
01:05:07,019 --> 01:05:05,020
because it really relate you know I

1617
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:07,029
think it's related but you know it tie

1618
01:05:11,790 --> 01:05:10,690
it ties into all you know to the topic I

1619
01:05:13,470 --> 01:05:11,800
think I probably

1620
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:13,480
point I should have made but I think

1621
01:05:17,340 --> 01:05:15,760
it's interesting that you know I started

1622
01:05:19,740 --> 01:05:17,350
out interested in consciousness and then

1623
01:05:23,010 --> 01:05:19,750
became interested in UFOs and you guys

1624
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:23,020
started out it with consciousness that's

1625
01:05:35,340 --> 01:05:26,530
that should be a good food for thought

1626
01:05:36,990 --> 01:05:35,350
for people yeah the Miguel Romero it's a

1627
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:37,000
red pill junkie who hero one of the

1628
01:05:44,310 --> 01:05:41,910
essays he back in like probably 2012

1629
01:05:45,860 --> 01:05:44,320
because he used to read my blog a lot

1630
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:45,870
and we used to sort of communicate

1631
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:49,810
online and and I think around about 2012

1632
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:52,570
2011 2012 when I was still very much in

1633
01:05:57,630 --> 01:05:54,610
the nuts and bolts kind of materialist

1634
01:05:59,940 --> 01:05:57,640
camp on this well I should say you know

1635
01:06:01,710 --> 01:05:59,950
although I've always the lower used to

1636
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:01,720
be very much in that in that camp I've

1637
01:06:06,900 --> 01:06:04,210
never doubted the you know I've never

1638
01:06:10,310 --> 01:06:06,910
questioned the reality of a side

1639
01:06:14,430 --> 01:06:10,320
phenomena but a but at the same time I

1640
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:14,440
wasn't ready at that point to sort of to

1641
01:06:18,540 --> 01:06:16,210
look closer to home for potential

1642
01:06:21,570 --> 01:06:18,550
answers to the UFO phenomenon but but

1643
01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:21,580
Miguel said to me said you know like if

1644
01:06:26,910 --> 01:06:23,920
anyone who's anyone with an open enough

1645
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:26,920
mind and who has who has the potential

1646
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:29,290
for serious critical thought who stays

1647
01:06:35,370 --> 01:06:32,170
with this subject for long enough will

1648
01:06:36,870 --> 01:06:35,380
go through the same process and he said

1649
01:06:39,630 --> 01:06:36,880
you know you start you start off with

1650
01:06:42,030 --> 01:06:39,640
the ETH etc and you stick to it you know

1651
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:42,040
hard and fast and then you start to

1652
01:06:46,740 --> 01:06:44,890
become disillusioned with with certain

1653
01:06:48,180 --> 01:06:46,750
aspects not in a sonoran but you know

1654
01:06:49,380 --> 01:06:48,190
attempt to the phenomena but also that

1655
01:06:51,420 --> 01:06:49,390
you know the field that studies it and

1656
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:51,430
then you start to explore you start to

1657
01:06:54,540 --> 01:06:52,690
meet other people who start to listen to

1658
01:06:58,770 --> 01:06:54,550
other ideas and you start to expand your

1659
01:07:01,560 --> 01:06:58,780
mind and explore more curious theories

1660
01:07:04,350 --> 01:07:01,570
and Annie and I said yeah and I said

1661
01:07:05,490 --> 01:07:04,360
yeah I know and I was like and he said

1662
01:07:09,390 --> 01:07:05,500
he said you'll get he said you'll get

1663
01:07:10,980 --> 01:07:09,400
there and you know little did we know

1664
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:10,990
then that he'd be writing an essay in in

1665
01:07:15,150 --> 01:07:12,130
a in this book that I wrote several

1666
01:07:16,380 --> 01:07:15,160
years additude several years later and

1667
01:07:20,010 --> 01:07:16,390
he's absolutely right he's absolutely

1668
01:07:21,530 --> 01:07:20,020
right and I was totally resistant to

1669
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:21,540
what he was telling me at the time and

1670
01:07:24,570 --> 01:07:23,170
he was absolutely right

1671
01:07:25,950 --> 01:07:24,580
and I think this is I think as true I

1672
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:25,960
think a lot of people go

1673
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:28,210
through his process I think the

1674
01:07:32,970 --> 01:07:30,210
differences as it says I've never and

1675
01:07:34,260 --> 01:07:32,980
probably will never completely reject

1676
01:07:36,750 --> 01:07:34,270
ETH because it just makes too much sense

1677
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:36,760
on a logical scientific level ii you

1678
01:07:41,570 --> 01:07:39,370
know extraterrestrial life surely exists

1679
01:07:43,350 --> 01:07:41,580
surely is more advanced than we are

1680
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:43,360
theoretical physics allows for

1681
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:47,610
interstellar travel and people report

1682
01:07:52,050 --> 01:07:49,810
people reporting technological machines

1683
01:07:56,190 --> 01:07:52,060
with apparently alien being so eth

1684
01:07:57,840 --> 01:07:56,200
should be considered obviously but don't

1685
01:08:00,420 --> 01:07:57,850
you think that advanced species would

1686
01:08:03,330 --> 01:08:00,430
take their wonderful amazing technology

1687
01:08:05,070 --> 01:08:03,340
and just send self-replicating nanobots

1688
01:08:07,500 --> 01:08:05,080
out to collect all there is to know and

1689
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:07,510
say man on back thank you some wouldn't

1690
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:10,450
maybe some half but maybe some maybe

1691
01:08:13,350 --> 01:08:12,010
some aren't quite at that level and

1692
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:13,360
decide that they you know the point is

1693
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:14,890
is that we need to look at the term

1694
01:08:19,110 --> 01:08:17,290
alien and it literally alien and we

1695
01:08:21,349 --> 01:08:19,120
don't we can't presume to understand how

1696
01:08:23,250 --> 01:08:21,359
an alien intelligence would operate

1697
01:08:25,460 --> 01:08:23,260
because it is by its very nature

1698
01:08:28,410 --> 01:08:25,470
completely alien to us and so we project

1699
01:08:31,380 --> 01:08:28,420
onto it in what we think is LOD what we

1700
01:08:34,230 --> 01:08:31,390
think is logical so I do think as I say

1701
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:34,240
I do think that there is a very strong

1702
01:08:36,810 --> 01:08:35,770
possibility and likelihood in fact that

1703
01:08:42,300 --> 01:08:36,820
there is an extraterrestrial component

1704
01:08:44,970 --> 01:08:42,310
to UFOs but but I think that it that

1705
01:08:47,310 --> 01:08:44,980
there is it's far far weirder far we're

1706
01:08:49,050 --> 01:08:47,320
denied I think it's very cute and I

1707
01:08:52,260 --> 01:08:49,060
think an interesting parallel to the NDE

1708
01:08:53,670 --> 01:08:52,270
piece is how it mimics in many ways the

1709
01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:53,680
exact high strangeness of close

1710
01:08:57,510 --> 01:08:55,510
encounter cases and I think that's

1711
01:08:59,760 --> 01:08:57,520
something worth to thinking about in

1712
01:09:02,910 --> 01:08:59,770
terms of the notion of dream logic and

1713
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:02,920
the kind of no really interesting trippy

1714
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:04,930
stories that people do tell whether it's

1715
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:06,730
an NDE or a close encounter case they

1716
01:09:09,870 --> 01:09:08,170
seem to parallel each other in very

1717
01:09:12,030 --> 01:09:09,880
interesting ways and maybe this suggests

1718
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:12,040
to us that it's consciousness that needs

1719
01:09:16,260 --> 01:09:14,170
to be investigated not whether we know

1720
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:16,270
for certain if it continues but just

1721
01:09:19,620 --> 01:09:17,770
looking at ours but you got it like I

1722
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:19,630
said you got a bust one paradigm at a

1723
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:23,650
time you can't start with that you have

1724
01:09:26,849 --> 01:09:25,330
to start with the data that you have the

1725
01:09:29,190 --> 01:09:26,859
data that we have is consciousness

1726
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:29,200
somehow survive so then from there you

1727
01:09:32,910 --> 01:09:30,730
can start exploring you know what a

1728
01:09:36,329 --> 01:09:32,920
psychedelic consciousness what is the

1729
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:36,339
DMT experience consciousness what is you

1730
01:09:39,480 --> 01:09:37,810
know ferry consciousness what is

1731
01:09:41,100 --> 01:09:39,490
demonology consciousness

1732
01:09:43,230 --> 01:09:41,110
but if you're stuck in this idea that no

1733
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:43,240
I can't accept the data that at least

1734
01:09:47,310 --> 01:09:45,250
we're able to collect I don't know where

1735
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:47,320
you go with that you got to be kind of

1736
01:09:51,390 --> 01:09:49,210
fair-minded with the data I think I

1737
01:09:52,500 --> 01:09:51,400
think though that you know like any

1738
01:09:54,450 --> 01:09:52,510
scientist is gonna have different

1739
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:54,460
thresholds for what they believe is good

1740
01:09:58,020 --> 01:09:56,410
data right so you've got your threshold

1741
01:09:59,580 --> 01:09:58,030
for data other people have their

1742
01:10:01,650 --> 01:09:59,590
thresholds for data and that's why they

1743
01:10:03,750 --> 01:10:01,660
disagree with other people's models so

1744
01:10:07,260 --> 01:10:03,760
there's a huge disagreement with the

1745
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:07,270
model of the NDE you know confirmation

1746
01:10:11,490 --> 01:10:08,650
that consciousness goes on because

1747
01:10:13,350 --> 01:10:11,500
they're not meeting the threshold you

1748
01:10:15,780 --> 01:10:13,360
don't seem to even agree with the Psy

1749
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:15,790
model you you picked on Stanton Friedman

1750
01:10:21,750 --> 01:10:19,360
for Versailles and psy has been proven

1751
01:10:23,790 --> 01:10:21,760
in the lab over and over again and then

1752
01:10:25,770 --> 01:10:23,800
you got somebody like Dean Radin who's

1753
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:25,780
just a pair of psychology researcher and

1754
01:10:29,670 --> 01:10:27,730
took the double-slit experiment and

1755
01:10:31,590 --> 01:10:29,680
proved that consciousness affects the

1756
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:31,600
double slit experiment so I don't know

1757
01:10:35,430 --> 01:10:33,310
how your flip-flopping between this kind

1758
01:10:37,620 --> 01:10:35,440
of hardcore materialist position and

1759
01:10:40,530 --> 01:10:37,630
then this kind of imaginal dream thing

1760
01:10:42,390 --> 01:10:40,540
III that just kind of gets me I don't I

1761
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:42,400
don't get you know so you can make those

1762
01:10:47,190 --> 01:10:44,530
two things mesh together but I don't see

1763
01:10:48,510 --> 01:10:47,200
the mesh well because I see that science

1764
01:10:50,310 --> 01:10:48,520
you know and this is what I like about

1765
01:10:52,830 --> 01:10:50,320
Hoffman's you know notion is that

1766
01:10:55,380 --> 01:10:52,840
science gives us a way out to say that

1767
01:10:58,110 --> 01:10:55,390
yeah the potential for parapsychology to

1768
01:10:59,790 --> 01:10:58,120
be a reality and for people to have you

1769
01:11:02,970 --> 01:10:59,800
know experiences of modalities that are

1770
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:02,980
completely alien to human perception and

1771
01:11:06,810 --> 01:11:05,050
human consciousness perhaps are there

1772
01:11:09,420 --> 01:11:06,820
and and I think that's a really

1773
01:11:11,970 --> 01:11:09,430
interesting tunnel to travel down to see

1774
01:11:14,430 --> 01:11:11,980
well what can it tell us that way but I

1775
01:11:16,170 --> 01:11:14,440
really I see that every time in every

1776
01:11:18,030 --> 01:11:16,180
UFO case that somebody starts talking

1777
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:18,040
about having a telepathic experience I

1778
01:11:21,390 --> 01:11:19,930
turn off right at that moment because

1779
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:21,400
there's no way you can tell me what's

1780
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:22,810
happening inside your head isn't just a

1781
01:11:26,580 --> 01:11:24,970
voice inside your head versus the aliens

1782
01:11:28,290 --> 01:11:26,590
talking to you so I'm much more

1783
01:11:30,660 --> 01:11:28,300
interested in alien abduction stories

1784
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:30,670
where the aliens are actually vocalized

1785
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:33,610
saying and speaking languages beyond the

1786
01:11:38,700 --> 01:11:35,890
can of the actual experience earth in

1787
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:38,710
its place arbitrary from my bio not at

1788
01:11:42,420 --> 01:11:40,930
all you could well that's well if you

1789
01:11:44,730 --> 01:11:42,430
believe that language is something that

1790
01:11:46,770 --> 01:11:44,740
is generated on a planet specific nature

1791
01:11:48,570 --> 01:11:46,780
then the concept of one language

1792
01:11:50,220 --> 01:11:48,580
communicating to another language from

1793
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:50,230
two different planets is beyond

1794
01:11:53,430 --> 01:11:52,690
irrational it'll just never happen it'll

1795
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:53,440
just never have

1796
01:11:56,790 --> 01:11:55,330
till up to these telepathy something

1797
01:11:58,350 --> 01:11:56,800
else that's been proven in the lab so I

1798
01:12:01,530 --> 01:11:58,360
mean I don't know where you want to go

1799
01:12:05,370 --> 01:12:01,540
with that enough I gotta go awesome guys

1800
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:05,380
it's gonna sound like Sedona if you

1801
01:12:10,140 --> 01:12:06,850
recording that last bit we had some good

1802
01:12:11,460 --> 01:12:10,150
stuff in the interview well I'm happy to

1803
01:12:13,290 --> 01:12:11,470
include it in the interview if you guys

1804
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:13,300
want I'm just always if you're okay with

1805
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:14,290
it I'm okay with it

1806
01:12:19,020 --> 01:12:17,770
I'm totally okay with it I think love to

1807
01:12:20,220 --> 01:12:19,030
have had another hour with you to

1808
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:20,230
actually flesh things out in a more

1809
01:12:24,060 --> 01:12:21,730
specific way cuz I don't think we really

1810
01:12:26,820 --> 01:12:24,070
got to them the full details of where it

1811
01:12:28,740 --> 01:12:26,830
can all go cuz I do support I totally

1812
01:12:30,690 --> 01:12:28,750
support not just a rational thinking but

1813
01:12:32,820 --> 01:12:30,700
I completely support where consciousness

1814
01:12:35,610 --> 01:12:32,830
has potential to be in terms of going

1815
01:12:37,740 --> 01:12:35,620
beyond the human biology but at the same

1816
01:12:39,300 --> 01:12:37,750
time I don't think we can leapfrog right

1817
01:12:41,310 --> 01:12:39,310
away I think we give more credit to a

1818
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:41,320
witness by talking about the nature of

1819
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:43,210
their biology first before convincing

1820
01:12:47,070 --> 01:12:45,370
them that there's Starchild I think

1821
01:12:48,690 --> 01:12:47,080
there there's you need to give something

1822
01:12:50,100 --> 01:12:48,700
more human to that that witness that's

1823
01:12:53,010 --> 01:12:50,110
taking place and instead of trying to

1824
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:53,020
put them into our box not sure I totally

1825
01:12:57,660 --> 01:12:54,970
understand that but it's cool I'll take

1826
01:13:00,300 --> 01:12:57,670
it with that and go awesome guys again

1827
01:13:03,150 --> 01:13:00,310
thank you so much for actually Robbie I

1828
01:13:05,010 --> 01:13:03,160
thought it goes thanks again to Robbie

1829
01:13:07,590 --> 01:13:05,020
and Robert for joining me today on

1830
01:13:10,590 --> 01:13:07,600
skeptic oh one question idea from this

1831
01:13:13,770 --> 01:13:10,600
interview a very basic one what do UFOs

1832
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:13,780
have to do with consciousness actually

1833
01:13:18,540 --> 01:13:15,850
it sounds like a simple question but as

1834
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:18,550
you heard in the last hour it's anything

1835
01:13:24,150 --> 01:13:21,010
but simple and there's a million

1836
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:24,160
different ways to slice it so you don't

1837
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:25,930
have to slice it a million ways just

1838
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,570
slice it a couple of ways and let me

1839
01:13:32,790 --> 01:13:30,400
hear from you let me know what you think

1840
01:13:35,550 --> 01:13:32,800
do you can send me an email connect with

1841
01:13:38,010 --> 01:13:35,560
me on Facebook or of course join the

1842
01:13:38,940 --> 01:13:38,020
skeptical forum which I have to say is

1843
01:13:40,620 --> 01:13:38,950
going through a little bit of a

1844
01:13:43,530 --> 01:13:40,630
transition hopefully it'll be a good

1845
01:13:46,440 --> 01:13:43,540
transition I'm pairing it down to focus

1846
01:13:49,020 --> 01:13:46,450
more on the show but some longtime

1847
01:13:51,330 --> 01:13:49,030
posters who are doing some very

1848
01:13:55,440 --> 01:13:51,340
interesting stuff have kind of gone off

1849
01:13:57,690 --> 01:13:55,450
and started another form related to some

1850
01:13:59,550 --> 01:13:57,700
of these topics so check all that out

1851
01:14:00,780 --> 01:13:59,560
you have to go to the forum and you'll

1852
01:14:02,910 --> 01:14:00,790
kind of see what some of these other

1853
01:14:04,950 --> 01:14:02,920
folks are doing and of course if you

1854
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:04,960
want to talk about the show that's

1855
01:14:09,850 --> 01:14:06,770
always available on

1856
01:14:11,650 --> 01:14:09,860
form as well so that's going to do it

1857
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:11,660
for this episode I have some really good

1858
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:13,370
ones coming up including an interview

1859
01:14:17,620 --> 01:14:15,250
with Jacques the light which is very

1860
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:17,630
exciting and I think he has some really

1861
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:19,970
interesting things to say and that's

1862
01:14:24,460 --> 01:14:21,170
coming up next

1863
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:24,470
I didn't plan to have two UFO interviews

1864
01:14:29,820 --> 01:14:27,050
in a row but that's the way it turned

1865
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:29,830
out please stay with me for all of that

1866
01:14:34,980 --> 01:14:33,890
until next time take care and bye for